Because it's pretty much the same thing

[Atticus]

My problem with both sides of the debate is supposed certainty.

[bobbob1313]

The intentional attempt to misguide the public by suggesting our current warming is caused by the sun has been debunked. The sun data has already been factored into the equation and does not account for the increased warming. A quick google search will settle that issue.

 

I did not say nor did I infer that the earth does not go through natural cycles.

 

The burden of proof here is on your. I'm not going to do a google search for it when you are the one making the claims.

 

Honestly, I personally do think GW is probably happening, but I'm not sure that we are causing it. It really seems more like a natural cycle that will eventually reverse itself. Of course, this is sort of a Pascal's wager debate, in that if we don't bet on human's causing global warming, the possible effects are worse, but I'm still not sure it's worth all of the arguments it causes. Do we need to get off of unrenewable resource? Yes, mostly because of the economic effects. It actually came out a few weeks ago that corn based ethanols put out more greenhouse gases. SO why are we putting so much money into that, when we've got viable alternatives in hydrogen that we just need to invest in...

 

That is my problem with this whole debate. It is, like most political issues designed to keep our minds off of real problems, bases mostly on emotion. One side screams "IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING ALL OF THE BABY SEALS WILL DIE AND SO WILL FLORIDA!!" and the other side screams "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS, TERRORISTS AND GAYS ARE EVERYWHERE". And nothing ever gets done. Instead of trying to come up with real solutions to whatever problems we have, we just make big sweeping generalizations about the issue and never try to fix it.

[Good Old Neon]

The burden of proof here is on your. I'm not going to do a google search for it when you are the one making the claims.

 

Honestly, I personally do think GW is probably happening, but I'm not sure that we are causing it. It really seems more like a natural cycle that will eventually reverse itself. Of course, this is sort of a Pascal's wager debate, in that if we don't bet on human's causing global warming, the possible effects are worse, but I'm still not sure it's worth all of the arguments it causes. Do we need to get off of unrenewable resource? Yes, mostly because of the economic effects. It actually came out a few weeks ago that corn based ethanols put out more greenhouse gases. SO why are we putting so much money into that, when we've got viable alternatives in hydrogen that we just need to invest in...

 

That is my problem with this whole debate. It is, like most political issues designed to keep our minds off of real problems, bases mostly on emotion. One side screams "IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING ALL OF THE BABY SEALS WILL DIE AND SO WILL FLORIDA!!" and the other side screams "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS, TERRORISTS AND GAYS ARE EVERYWHERE". And nothing ever gets done. Instead of trying to come up with real solutions to whatever problems we have, we just make big sweeping generalizations about the issue and never try to fix it.

 

If you doubt the existence of human caused climate change yet are interested in learning more, well, I think you have a responsibility to yourself to educate your own self. Anything I have to say on the issue will be dismissed with skepticism, and rightfully so.

 

In the past, you have asserted that you don

[Good Old Neon]

And another - this one is in direct reference to the aforementioned, debunked theory of global warming being caused by the sun.

 

http://www.celsias.com/2007/07/11/new-scie...-caused-by-sun/

[bobbob1313]

Ok, whatever. It's not worth getting into any sort of debate with you, as I keep on forgetting how condescending you always are. You are right, the sky is falling, there is no doubt in any scientist's mind that global warming is caused by humans, and computer models of weather patterns are accurate to a high degree.

[Good Old Neon]

A little backgound on the leading skeptic organizations from the Union of Concerned Scientists website -

 

Responding to Global Warming Skeptics

 

[Good Old Neon]

Ok, whatever. It's not worth getting into any sort of debate with you, as I keep on forgetting how condescending you always are. You are right, the sky is falling, there is no doubt in any scientist's mind that global warming is caused by humans, and computer models of weather patterns are accurate to a high degree.

 

I

[mountain bed]

The thing that is most disturbing to me is how many Congressmen are in bed with these very well-funded and powerful organizations. There will be no laws designed to change our current path as long as folks like Inhofe, Craig, etc., are still on the hill.

 

We can't wait another decade to reverse things. And even if there is a bit of the Chicken Little mentality going on here I would think it's best to err on the side of caution, no?

[bobbob1313]

I

[bobbob1313]

The thing that is most disturbing to me is how many Congressmen are in bed with these very well-funded and powerful organizations. There will be no laws designed to change our current path as long as folks like Inhofe, Craig, etc., are still on the hill.

 

We can't wait another decade to reverse things. And even if there is a bit of the Chicken Little mentality going on here I would think it's best to err on the side of caution, no?

 

That was my point, with the Pascal thing. Is it worth the amount of money and time (and potential economic problems that would surely arise) for something that may not happen? It's going to have to be a cost, benefit analysis. I'm not sure where I stand on that, though I am for many of the changes that global warming proponents are, though for economic reasons (as well as the fact that the air quality is lowered, which is another point that people ignore.) Frankly, I think there are any number or threats to humanity that are more worrisome.

 

I do think we need to stop using SUVs so much, and move to renewable resources (and ethanol is NOT the answer, that is a bunch of smoke and mirrors from the gas companies to make people think they are making a difference), but not for any one reason. There are numerous reasons why we need to cut back on this stuff, but global warming is 4th or 5th on my list.

[Good Old Neon]

Whatever, man. Like I said, it's really not worth discussing anything with you, and I still always fall for this crap.

 

I will say this, re: Global warming:

 

Correlation does not equal causation. Temperatures are rising, of this there is very little doubt. The doubt comes from people who don't blindly accept that it has to be caused by humans. I'm not an expert on the subject, and as such I am not certain one way or the other, but I tend to lean towards the side that says that it might not be caused by humanity, or the affects we add are negligible compared to other various factors. And even the IPCC has said as much:

 

"The addition of greenhouse gases and aerosols has changed the composition of the atmosphere. The changes in the atmosphere have likely influenced temperature, precipitation, storms and sea level (IPCC, 2007). However, these features of the climate also vary naturally, so determining what fraction of climate changes are due to natural variability versus human activities is challenging."

 

(http://epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentcc.html)

 

And yet their ultimate finding is that humans are now the direct cause of current and future warming. You've just quoted an organization who is in direct opposition to your current thinking w/r/t climate change.

 

See also (if you haven't already) the following video w/r/t Pascal

[j4lackey]

Whether we are CAUSING global warming, or are INCREASING global warming, it's having bad effects, and in most models studied by scientists, will only pick up speed at an exponential rate, possibly reaching a tipping point from which there is little turning back. I prefer to think we have not reached that point yet, but have enough evidence to see something serious is happening that may affect many of the weather, food and wildlife systems that encircle our planet. Cause enough to be concerned, and to see that, combined with whatever 3 or 4 other causes precede it on BobBob's list, we need to start changing some of the ways we do things, and be a little more cognizant of how we affect the earth, and how we could be more sensible and sensitive about how we use our resources. And that runs counter to big advertising, big business, and the government representitives who are supposedly voted in and paid to watch out for our interests.

 

So if Al Gore makes a scary movie with science and whatnot in it to wake people up, more power to him. From what I see of popular culture and global warfare and politics, the skeptic in me feels it probably won't work.

 

But the dad in me has to believe it can, and find some way to assist it. I'm still trying to figure that out.

 

I like what Isadorah said earlier, Peace isn't political.

 

Peace...

[ikol]

I like what Isadorah said earlier, Peace isn't political.

 

But Al Gore is.

[Good Old Neon]

But Al Gore is.

 

Al Gore is simply presenting evidence and data others have compiled

[bobbob1313]

Al Gore is simply presenting evidence and data others have compiled

[Good Old Neon]

He is treated like a lighting rod by the right wing and a sacred idol by the left wing. He is neither.

 

Agreed.

[j4lackey]

But Al Gore is.

:hangsheadandgrownsmuchinthemannerofLurchfromTV'sTheAddamsFamily

[Reni]

I read an interesting article recently speculating that Gore has no interest in running for president again because he has found a cause bigger than himself and he is finally doing work he feels really good about and wants to dedicate his life to. They speculate that if he ran for president again, he would be going back to a place that he doesn't want to be.

 

I have tried to track this article back down - but can't remember where I found it. It was an interesting take.

 

update - here it is

[boywiththorninside]

I like the Earth plenty. Although I live in a city, whenever I get the chance, I like to take walks in the woods and just take it all in. I'm obsessive about recycling. I religiously seperate my paper, my glass, and my plastics. Nothing goes in the trash that shouldn't. Because I live in New York, I don't drive an automobile. Public transporation for me. No unnecessary gas consumption here. When I go food shopping I take a canvas bag, emblazoned with the words "The Nature Conservancy - Saving the Last Great Places," with me so that I won't have to use the store-supplied plastic bags. I got "The Nature Conservancy" bag as a result of contributing money to their organization, as I sometimes do. I'd like to think I've got some environmental bona fides. However, despite these bona fides, I just can't jump on the Gore-led global warming bandwagon. I'm sorry, I just can't do it. Remember the 1980's? Remember acid rain!? My elementary school years were ruined by the fact that acid rain was going to render much of the world inhabitable. Well, twenty years later, it hasn't happened. Why not? Was it just hysteria? Or did we make the necessary changes to combat acid rain? I don't know, but I do get the feeling with all of the talk of global warming, that I have seen it all before. In the 1970's, it was litter. In the 1980's, it was acid rain. Today, it's global warming.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for taking care of the Earth. I try to do my part, and would encourage everybody to do the same. To me, this is just common sense. Nonetheless, there is just something about the global warming movement that strikes me as, well, almost faddist. I don't mean to attack or offend anyone by saying this, but it's just how I see it. I guess I'm also a bit uncomfortable that the issue has become, in a way, political. I mean, if you question any bit of Gore's argument, you're part of the right-wing, science-hating, lie machine. This makes me queasy. If any issue should be above politics, it's the environment.

 

For no reason really, a blast from the past

[Reni]

really good post boywiththorn.....

[j4lackey]

But, BoyWithThorn, more people need to wake up and act as you do. That's who this is for. And to be honest, this is a little bigger than acid rain. I do worry about how this affects kids, including mine. It's got to add a fairly large pressure, down deep, if not subconscious. Like the nuclear threat in the 50's/60's.

 

But I figure that they'll get along by being aware and informed about their world, and take steps to do about it what they can, much as you do. It's the only way for a sentient person to stay sane. Do what you can and go along about your life.

[ikol]

The vast majority of the skeptics, not coincidentally, are, in some way, employed by or lobby for the oil industry or industry in general.

 

Don

[Analogman]

Anyone here live in Atlanta?

[mountain bed]

Anyone here live in Atlanta?

I wish AWATT was around. I'd be innarested in his opinion on this.

[embiggen]

Anyone here live in Atlanta?

 

depressing. I've been to that lake and it is a beautiful place. this is just heartbreaking.