Can I get something off my chest?

[Wendy]

Man, there are things being said here that seemingly deny the existence of subjectivity in music. Cool.

If I had a nickel for every time somebody on the internet seemingly denied the existence of subjectivity in music, well ... ... Yeah. You know where I'm goin' with this.

[Synthesizer Patel]

harmony, rhythm - time signatures/tempo etc... - are all mathematical, whether that's in the lyrics or the music. mathematics is not subjective. the really intersting thing is how many variations you can achieve with such a small amount of variables (eg. the 12 notes of an octave, or the structure of a single bar), but it's when you combine these elements together that you produce an infinite number of results. however, those core elements have to each be "good" and then, together, have to be in some form of harmony for the end results to be "good". a good example of mathematics at work in music would be zaireka, by the flaming lips - there are 4 cd's and you have to play them together on 4 seperate systems to achieve the one piece of music (for those of you that did not know). now, if you press play at roughly the same time, the music sounds good - but if you played cd 1 and 2 at the same time and then pressed play on cd 4 20 seconds later and cd 3 30 seconds later it would probably be too discordant to be "good" (or maybe it won't, yet there would be examples of doing that process when it wouldn't work) that is an example of how simple mathematics effects the quality of music.

 

anyway, i could go on forever about this and it'd not change people in either camps mind. really, if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves. otherwise there would be a massive spread of ever changing opinion - making list making a very tough past time.

 

i believe the only thing subjective is whether or not a person likes it, not whether or not them thinking something is good makes it good - that is simply being right or wrong about something. you know, some people like having their balls stamped on by high heels - that doesn't mean having your balls stamped on by high heels is good, it simply means that they like it.

[LouieB]

a good example of mathematics at work in music would be zaireka, by the flaming lips -

anyway, i could go on forever about this and it'd not change people in either camps mind. really, if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves. otherwise there would be a massive spread of ever changing opinion - making list making a very tough past time.

 

i

Not sure what Zarieeka has to do with any of this, but I suppose on one level you do have something of a point. While music is somewhat subjective, there are agreed upon songs, peices, etc. that lots of people like.

 

A really good book on this stuff is called "This is your brain on Music." There are chords that are sort of universally struck by a common set of musical patterns and intervals. Even where there are cultural differences even in musical scales, there appear to be sounds that are pleasing to all humans and some that aren't (and others that have to be learned.)

 

What any of this has to do with some people liking or not liking SBS is still beyond me.

 

LouieB

[caliber66]

really, if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves. otherwise there would be a massive spread of ever changing opinion - making list making a very tough past time.

Billions of people buy Britney Spears and Spice Girls albums because they are really good at math?

[Gobias Industries]

Billions of people buy Britney Spears and Spice Girls albums because they are really good at math?

 

They had other people do the math for them.

[caliber66]

They had other people do the math for them.

Still, those people must do math a shitload better than, say, Elliott Smith or Jeff Mangum, or (gasp) Wilco.

[sweetheart-mine]

if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves.

what outside force would that be? this doesn't make sense to me. for example, sbs won a grammy nomination, yet read this thread; it seems a lot of people still don't like it, and another good amount like or love it. people are very capable of thinking about music and making their own personal decisions about what they like and what they don't like. music is subjective, and i see nothing sad about people's tastes, whether millions of other people share it or one person shares it or no one at all.

[mfwahl]

A really good book on this stuff is called "This is your brain on Music." There are chords that are sort of universally struck by a common set of musical patterns and intervals. Even where there are cultural differences even in musical scales, there appear to be sounds that are pleasing to all humans and some that aren't (and others that have to be learned.)

That's a good book, by the way. SBS is pretty good, too. Also, people who are saying that Tweedy's songwriting is worse, have you seen these songs live? Oh shit, they are so good live.

[Synthesizer Patel]

Not sure what Zarieeka has to do with any of this, but I suppose on one level you do have something of a point. While music is somewhat subjective, there are agreed upon songs, peices, etc. that lots of people like.

 

A really good book on this stuff is called "This is your brain on Music." There are chords that are sort of universally struck by a common set of musical patterns and intervals. Even where there are cultural differences even in musical scales, there appear to be sounds that are pleasing to all humans and some that aren't (and others that have to be learned.)

 

What any of this has to do with some people liking or not liking SBS is still beyond me.

 

LouieB

 

i wasn't really trying to comment on sbs being good or bad, i was just talking about the whole "music is subjective" thing. which, i strongly disagree with. i think you can be subjective about what is the best of the best kinds of art & music - but there is an objectivity to what's bollocks and what's not.

 

i'll have to check that book out, thanks for the tip.

 

Billions of people buy Britney Spears and Spice Girls albums because they are really good at math?

 

looking at it from that point of view, it doesn't help the whole subjective arguement. it shows that the ability to sell records or be liked comes from outside forces rather than a persons internal/subjective beliefs on the music - otherwise on a graph of record sales the line would remain consistent, as the likelihood of a given person subjectively choosing to like and buy the album would only go up or down based on population changes. obviously this is not the case as exposure to these albums by the masses is what causes the level of sales - nothing subjective about that. how many albums did the spice girls sell last year, or britney spears compared to how many albums of The White Album got sold? they had their peaks, due to media exposure, then dropped off - based on the fact that their music has little merit. The White Album would be consistently high over a longer period of time, making it objectively better - even if that method is flawed somewhat by the media's fawning for The Beatles whenever possible.

 

what outside force would that be? this doesn't make sense to me. for example, sbs won a grammy nomination, yet read this thread; it seems a lot of people still don't like it, and another good amount like or love it. people are very capable of thinking about music and making their own personal decisions about what they like and what they don't like. music is subjective, and i see nothing sad about people's tastes, whether millions of other people share it or one person shares it or no one at all.

 

see my first & second reply.

[cryptique]

i think you can be subjective about what is the best of the best kinds of art & music - but there is an objectivity to what's bollocks and what's not.

No, there really isn't. Sorry.

[NewMadridMO]

That's a good book, by the way. SBS is pretty good, too. Also, people who are saying that Tweedy's songwriting is worse, have you seen these songs live? Oh shit, they are so good live.

 

Yeah, they're good live (as stated before), but this thread was started to discuss their recent releases.

 

Jeff's boring "dad" adult contemporary lyrics + Nels masturbatory noodling + STRONG limitations on Glen (maybe the best musician in the band) = a dull record.

[Gobias Industries]

Yeah, they're good live (as stated before), but this thread was started to discuss their recent releases.

 

Jeff's boring "dad" adult contemporary lyrics + Nels masturbatory noodling + STRONG limitations on Glen (maybe the best musician in the band) = a dull record.

 

[Synthesizer Patel]

No, there really isn't. Sorry.

 

Don't feel too sorry for me, I'm not the one that has such a negative view on all this. When things are placed on an equal plane of value, that doesn't mean they have equally high value, it just means they become equally worthless - there's no good or bad, right or wrong, they have nothing to offer except to act as a relective surface for our inner selves. I don't know where you got all your thoughts and beliefs from? You must surely have been born with them.

[fatheadfred]

Well, this will probably be their last album since no one likes them anymore.

 

Jeff, Jay B, & Jay F will start a power folk trio that will last 2 weeks due to creative differences. At that point, Jeff will grow a beard, get fat, and concentrate on writing poetry.

 

Glenn will get a gig with an experimental jazz group.

 

John and Pat will continue defending Autumn.

 

Mike will be a tech, like he was before.

 

Nels will continue to hop around as a guest and w/ the Singers.

[mpolak21]

In our recent VC Top 100 albums poll, YHF came in first, AGIB in 10th, Summerteeth in 11th and Being There in 25h. Sky Blue Sky was 117th, for what it's worth.

 

I agree that Sky Blue Sky isn't as good as those records, but I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of tension in the band or weaker lyrics. There's just not a lot of tension in the songs and on the record and therefore I personally don't find as captivating a listen as the band's previous output. It's not a bad record, but I am rarely compelled to listen to it in its entirety. The songs are better live for the most part but some of them Either Way, What Light, Shake if Off really don't work for me in any setting.

 

--Mike

[Central Scrutinizer]

Does anyone honestly think the only difference between YHF/AGiB and SBS is a lack of "noise"? The songwriting is much more unique and challenging in those older albums -- noise or not -- and the arrangements are much more interesting (IMO).

 

I've seen some point to O'Rourke as the "bringer of noise" for these albums... Is that true? If so, seems odd to me as that is NOT what his stuff -- both solo and with Loose Fur -- sounds like.

From a technical standpoint, differences in the three albums:

 

YHF -- band wrote developed and recorded songs, then deconstructed them and rebuilt them using Pro Tools, adding the sonic texture and "noise"

 

AGIB -- band developed and constructed songs using Pro Tools, then broke down what they had created and figured out how to recreated organically.

 

SBS -- band created the songs together organically and recorded them. Then gave them added lift through performing live.

[Central Scrutinizer]

anyway, i could go on forever about this and it'd not change people in either camps mind. really, if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves. otherwise there would be a massive spread of ever changing opinion - making list making a very tough past time.

 

Music is subjective; preferences are a result of experience. Albums that are popular are accessible either through a "push" or "pull" approach -- the music industry "pushes" people like Britney Spears and Miley Cyrus upon the world. People who don't venture beyond pop radio never move beyond that range of experience. Bands lik Wilco are pulled into public consciousness by word of mouth, people who actively seek to broaden their experience. Certainly YHF made it number one through a combination of the two -- the press about the album/movie/book brought the artist to a broader consciousness, moreso than word of mouth and their touring had to that point.

 

That's why I said before (and got vilified for it) that you don't like or not like something just because you like or don't like it. Your acceptance has as much to do with how you've gotten to that particular point with your music tastes and whether you're willing to accept anything outside of that realm.

 

SBS was probably "pushed" more than any previous album, but within a smaller audience. The success of AGIB and SBS have as much to do with how the band has been treated by Nonsuch -- a boutique label of a megacorp that can package and market artists to an audience that considers itself a more savvy listener.

[barbkm]

Well, I think no one can touch him. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. I don't downplay the role of the guys in the band -- they are amazing. I get chills during the instrumentals -- and it's not just Jeff up there. But, for me, his words move me more than a guitar solo. Evidence is how well his stongs stand when it's six guys wailing away, or just one guy with a guitar.

 

And, I bet Jeff and I would disagree on many things. Like his aversion to razors for one. If I shaved as infrequently as him, I'd look like Big Foot and no man would want me. Second, I can't stand Diet Coke -- frankly, it makes me gassy. And third, since I'm from Jersey and he's from Chicago, I bet there'd be a hearted debate over the New York pizza vs. Chicago pizza issue.

 

But, I don't fault him for being scruffy, drinking Diet Coke, or preferring Chicago pizza. So, I think he would not fault me for loving his words over his music. When we're talking about my musical experiences, it's all about me, man, so I can have my opinion.

 

And since I doubt Jeff and I would ever get into any kind of debate about razsor, diet beverages, or the superiority of New Yorkr pizza over all else, I think it's a moot point, really.

[Panther]

From a technical standpoint, differences in the three albums:

 

YHF -- band wrote developed and recorded songs, then deconstructed them and rebuilt them using Pro Tools, adding the sonic texture and "noise"

 

AGIB -- band developed and constructed songs using Pro Tools, then broke down what they had created and figured out how to recreated organically.

 

SBS -- band created the songs together organically and recorded them. Then gave them added lift through performing live.

 

 

This is why when SBS came out I was telling people here that its just as experimental as the previous Wilco records.

Wilco never made experimental music realitive to the wide range of music out there but instead they experiment within themselves

they have ideas and they exucute them. SBS is very obvious there is nothing really to debate ,

I thought it was great that this band whose records I love decided to make a live album using analouge recordings great experiment forsure the sound is great.

 

As for the songwritting I find all these negative opinions to be lazy and thats not condecending I just spent allot of time with the lyrics and I feel I got it

so If you don't and you think they are just direct "dad rock" w.e that means I'll just asume your lazy.

 

I think whats really going on here allot of people like Wilcos pop songs (yhf for one) and there are not any simple stumming lennon/brian wilson pop songs on either AGIB or SBS

instead there are these big arrangments of rock music (walken for one)

 

 

so seriously someone here tell me when you listen to YAMF your not overwhelmed with audio pleasure

or tell me this that you dont think SBS sounds good or tell me this you have 2 other records that sound similar to SBS you dont so just let it be.

 

Wilco is faced with a burden evreytime they record because modern music as a whole is shit so you have all sorts of people latching on to this great band

but for people to analzye previous records annd say Wilco is loosing it is totally backwards I mean do you not think when Wilco released summerteeth

that there were many fans of Being There who felt the band was going in the wrong direction? But now you can look back on those records and apreciate them for what they are not what theyre not SBS is in the same position AGIB was 2 years ago its their latest effort and these sorta things come with that, Im not saying you cant have you opinion Im just saying my opinion is that you dont know what you talking about and your perspective is probaly outta wack when compared to the perspective on the guys in the band mainly

Jeff Tweedy.

[Panther]

Okay one more thing as far as this whole backlash or w.e this is dont tell me that Im a blind follower or that Im in denial thats bullshit

I like the record not because I like Jeff Tweedy personaly I dont know him I just like the record.

 

And as far as people calling it mellow or monotone there are no moments on YHF that reach the high tempos of YAMF or SWTS none of these words probaly not even my own translate to how the record actually sounds and thats why I get so fustrated its stupid I know and Im doing it to myself but many of these opinons certainly not all read like bad pitchfork reviews, personally I had a revelation with the album listening to Either Way I stoped thinking and just let go it sounds like the band was wound up there are diffrent sounds pouring in and out theres nothing on YHF that dose this so natrually but yet again that is what it is not what its not, peace out players one wing.

[caliber66]

Trying to read a sentence from you is like trying to breathe maple syrup.

[dls]

harmony, rhythm - time signatures/tempo etc... - are all mathematical, whether that's in the lyrics or the music. mathematics is not subjective. the really intersting thing is how many variations you can achieve with such a small amount of variables (eg. the 12 notes of an octave, or the structure of a single bar), but it's when you combine these elements together that you produce an infinite number of results. however, those core elements have to each be "good" and then, together, have to be in some form of harmony for the end results to be "good". a good example of mathematics at work in music would be zaireka, by the flaming lips - there are 4 cd's and you have to play them together on 4 seperate systems to achieve the one piece of music (for those of you that did not know). now, if you press play at roughly the same time, the music sounds good - but if you played cd 1 and 2 at the same time and then pressed play on cd 4 20 seconds later and cd 3 30 seconds later it would probably be too discordant to be "good" (or maybe it won't, yet there would be examples of doing that process when it wouldn't work) that is an example of how simple mathematics effects the quality of music.

 

anyway, i could go on forever about this and it'd not change people in either camps mind. really, if music is so subjective it's sad to see why so many people like the same stuff when it comes to compiling greatest albums list - cos some outside force must be causing people to think the same way, rather than them personally making the decision themselves. otherwise there would be a massive spread of ever changing opinion - making list making a very tough past time.

 

i believe the only thing subjective is whether or not a person likes it, not whether or not them thinking something is good makes it good - that is simply being right or wrong about something. you know, some people like having their balls stamped on by high heels - that doesn't mean having your balls stamped on by high heels is good, it simply means that they like it.

I'm not sure I undertand the math side of this argument, but I do agree that good music does exist independent of what we think about it. That is, Mozart's music is good, even if I think it sucks. And the only way you can really tell if music, or anything, is good or has quality (math aside) is if it stands the test of time. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" is a good read on this sort of thing.

[mpolak21]

Trying to read a sentence from you is like trying to breathe maple syrup.

 

Yeah, we should chip in and find Panther an editor. Bad grammar on the internet is pretty commonplace, but it's like the kid doesn't even speak English.

 

--Mike

[Central Scrutinizer]

Yeah, we should chip in and find Panther an editor. Bad grammar on the internet is pretty commonplace, but it's like the kid doesn't even speak English.

 

--Mike

I think he's speaking from the heart but sometimes the fingers get in the way of what you're trying to say.

 

I think what's great about this argument is to listen to the different perspectives, and agree to disagree.

[Synthesizer Patel]

I'm not sure I undertand the math side of this argument, but I do agree that good music does exist independent of what we think about it. That is, Mozart's music is good, even if I think it sucks. And the only way you can really tell if music, or anything, is good or has quality (math aside) is if it stands the test of time. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" is a good read on this sort of thing.

 

what don't you understand? if you do a google search on 'the golden mean' in classical music, you'll see how important composers once took the mathematics of music to be, but just because people don't quite do the same today doesn't mean that mathematical laws aren't being employed - they just might be without the musicians knowledge. actually, this page is quite interesting: here

 

basically my point was that if all these elements of music can be broken down into little equations of what is good and what isn't - say, playing c, f and then g7 together is a very simple progression that works (making it a good musical equation), but playing c, f and then d doesn't work (making it a bad musical equation). it is then putting these equations together in these infinite different ways that makes the good music we all love, but putting it together wrong can equally produce bad music - which is where the golden mean comes in.