It never ceases to amaze me...

[caliber66]

Remember McCain was passed over for admiral and retired. Why? And he was offered rear admiral, but had little or no fleet command experience.

Uh, if he was offered Rear Admiral and declined, he wasn't exactly passed over for Admiral.

 

Since he didn't have much command experience, having missed five and a half years of prime service time in a POW camp, I don't find it odd that he would not have been expected to get four stars. That he was a Lieutenant Commander eight years after graduating from USNA says to me that he was progressing pretty well in his Navy career before being shot down. Any number of things, including the war in Vietnam, could have accelerated his progression through the ranks, but I don't see anything in his military record that indicates to me that the Navy considered him a poor leader.

[MrRain422]

Yeah, I don't think his military service automatically qualifies him for anything, but it was all very respectable and certainly isn't a liability for him.

[caliber66]

I have heard it mentioned over and over that McCain is the king of not showing up senators. I'm not an expert on mavericks or anything, but I can read just fine.

 

MISSED VOTES:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/m000303/votes/missed/

John McCain has missed 407 votes (63.8%) during the current Congress.

 

So maybe Obama should bring this to light more often when his experience is compared to McCain's. To me it's like saying a 12th grader is naturally smarter than a 9th grader because of years in school. It's how you voted that matters, not how many years.

Why would Obama bring up missed votes when he is #3 on the list? Since Hillary Clinton is #4, I would imagine that many of the missed votes can be attributed to active campaigning for President. Tim Johnson, who is #2, has been recovering from a brain hemorrhage.

[fatheadfred]

Uh, if he was offered Rear Admiral and declined, he wasn't exactly passed over for Admiral.

 

Since he didn't have much command experience, having missed five and a half years of prime service time in a POW camp, I don't find it odd that he would not have been expected to get four stars. That he was a Lieutenant Commander eight years after graduating from USNA says to me that he was progressing pretty well in his Navy career before being shot down. Any number of things, including the war in Vietnam, could have accelerated his progression through the ranks, but I don't see anything in his military record that indicates to me that the Navy considered him a poor leader.

 

There are many things we will never know about the military as it survives by keeping secrets. Perhaps McCain's track record arrived at a point where he was a liability for further promotion.

 

Now, marrying a rich bud girl in Arizona, dumping his wife, and securing a senate seat among the retirees is move 2. Why couldn't he have just continued being a douchebag senator?

[Party @ the Moontower]

Yeah, I don't think his military service automatically qualifies him for anything, but it was all very respectable and certainly isn't a liability for him.

 

Really? Your positive he is being honest about what happened to him as a POW? Why would a former POW fight public access to POW/MIA Files when the families of the men wanted it so desperately? What does he have to gain from this I wonder. I can't figure this one out.

 

I don't know either way as I wasn't there, but I can't find a single source that can confirm his heroic torture stories.They do however, say he accepted tea, coffee, and cigs as a POW from the enemy. A big no no.

 

Your right though, it probably won't be a liability as those who know this info either don't care, or are voting against him anyway. I just have a hard time sorting thru it all.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Why would Obama bring up missed votes when he is #3 on the list? Since Hillary Clinton is #4, I would imagine that many of the missed votes can be attributed to active campaigning for President. Tim Johnson, who is #2, has been recovering from a brain hemorrhage.

 

 

McCain is # 1 on the list with a lot more missed votes. Your right though,had Johnson not been ill Obama would likely have been #2. Campaigning does take time away, but again, it's how you vote that matters.Looks like McCain shares Bush's brain now, despite the fact that the majority of the country does not feel Bush is doing a good job.Whatever it takes to get to the WH I guess.

 

Question? Why would a former POW vote to torture POW's?

[bjorn_skurj]

Question? Why would a former POW vote to torture POW's?

Yeah. I used to have a lot of respect for McCain - I would have voted for him, in all likelihood, in 2000 - but that vote says to me that a soul has been sold.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Yeah. I used to have a lot of respect for McCain - I would have voted for him, in all likelihood, in 2000 - but that vote says to me that a soul has been sold.

 

 

Nice way to describe it. His hugging Bush says the same thing. I swear I saw 'em scrappin' out behind a Chuck E Cheese a few years back

[bobbob1313]

On the one hand, I agree that his voting on torture has been not so good, but I've got a lot of problems with questioning the man's experience as a POW. You weren't there, so it's completely un-fucking-fair to speculate on that without any basis.

[caliber66]

There are many things we will never know about the military as it survives by keeping secrets. Perhaps McCain's track record arrived at a point where he was a liability for further promotion.

 

Now, marrying a rich bud girl in Arizona, dumping his wife, and securing a senate seat among the retirees is move 2. Why couldn't he have just continued being a douchebag senator?

The military survives by keeping secrets? I don't understand what that means.

 

Your second paragraph, I get, and I agree that that's something he should be called on. All I'm saying about his military record is that my impression is that the Navy certainly didn't seem to have any problem with his performance prior to his combat experience, and they certainly wouldn't have selected him for Rear Admiral if they saw major defects in his performance.

 

McCain is # 1 on the list with a lot more missed votes. Your right though,had Johnson not been ill Obama would likely have been #2. Campaigning does take time away, but again, it's how you vote that matters.Looks like McCain shares Bush's brain now, despite the fact that the majority of the country does not feel Bush is doing a good job.Whatever it takes to get to the WH I guess.

 

Question? Why would a former POW vote to torture POW's?

Absolutely, it's how you vote that counts. And it would be hypocritical for Obama to call out McCain on his voting attendance.

 

Yeah. I used to have a lot of respect for McCain - I would have voted for him, in all likelihood, in 2000 - but that vote says to me that a soul has been sold.

Yeah, that's pretty damning.

 

Also, this thread should probably be renamed "The new new new election thread," since it's not really about John Edwards anymore.

[fatheadfred]

On the one hand, I agree that his voting on torture has been not so good, but I've got a lot of problems with questioning the man's experience as a POW. You weren't there, so it's completely un-fucking-fair to speculate on that without any basis.

 

In a moment where he could have shown his committment to his buds and his country he waffled. Yes, this is the question. He is running for president. How he handled the situation is one, big, huge sign of his character. There are POWs that believe he waffled. He has blocked attempts to find POWs in Vietnam. These two points tend to lead people to seek what truly happened.

 

I believe it is fair to understand whether he sold out and therefore it is fair to speculate on the basis of his presidential contention.

[fatheadfred]

The military survives by keeping secrets? I don't understand what that means.

 

The military branches must keep secrets to preserve our country. We know that. We are all for that. However, sometimes to protect itself it must stretch the rationale for keeping secrets...that maybe shouldn't be secrets? Maybe the "we can't handle the truth philosophy".

 

I tend to believe the military, rightfully so, is a ballbuster for certain positions within each branch. They looked at Johnny's screwing around, drinking, wrecking planes, (maybe selling out) and decided they had enough.

 

In this case, it is ethical to not reveal the truth to any joe schmoe. But, if the person turns around and 30 yrs later runs for president...maybe it should be made public? I kind of think it should be kept private.

[caliber66]

Yeah, fair enough. John McCain was never going to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or a 4-Star like his dad, but he was selected for RADM, which is no mean feat. Although, again, there are a lot of factors that could have played in his favor - public sentiment, grandfathering, etc. And thanks for the clarification. I agree.

[Party @ the Moontower]

On the one hand, I agree that his voting on torture has been not so good, but I've got a lot of problems with questioning the man's experience as a POW. You weren't there, so it's completely un-fucking-fair to speculate on that without any basis.

 

So I have to had personally witnessed every piece of history and held hands with everyone since the beginning of time to have permission to research, debate, speculate, scrutinize, or discuss in any form anything about anything? Nice theory F-Bomber. Way to bring positive and informative debate to the table.You could learn something from the intelligent MEN in the posts above mine who don't seem to have the need to f-bomb and try and make people look like stupid jerks in order to get their points across.

 

How a man that wants the oval office conducts himself as a POW says a lot about how he will handle our country under extreme times, and on golf days. I think it's a wee bit important. And, I don't recall in any of my posts where I claim to be a know it all spouting POW shit out of my ass.I simply stated I don't know either way but can not find legit sources to his claims of being a war hero.Just his word against other POW's and government officials.

 

POW's seem to hate him. He votes for torture. According to many POW's he was called "Songbird McCain" for a reason.

 

Here is an example from Jack McLamb who served nine years in secret operations in Cambodia and

other nations before going on to become one of the most highly

decorated police officer's in Phoenix history, winning police officer

of the year twice before taking a role as a hostage negotiator for the

FBI.

 

Jack McLamb, a Vietnam veteran with top secret clearance says he has

personally spoken to numerous POW's who dispute John McCain's claim

that he refused to provide information after he was captured and

tortured in Hanoi, saying that in fact McCain's code-name was

"Songbird" because of his willingness to tell all to avoid torture.

 

His jailer claims they used to drink tea together talking discuss politics without any sort of torture. Several Vietnam veterans groups exist to expose McCain's torture lies and voting record on veterans issues.Research Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain and U.S. Veteran Dispatch. These doubts were brought up and used against him in his presidential campaign in 2000 . So with so many legit POW sources speaking out against him, and only McCain's word, it is fair to scrutinize and research his shit. I'd be stupid if I just blindly believed him. Unpatriotic even.

 

[John Smith]

Uh, if he was offered Rear Admiral and declined, he wasn't exactly passed over for Admiral.

 

Since he didn't have much command experience, having missed five and a half years of prime service time in a POW camp, I don't find it odd that he would not have been expected to get four stars. That he was a Lieutenant Commander eight years after graduating from USNA says to me that he was progressing pretty well in his Navy career before being shot down. Any number of things, including the war in Vietnam, could have accelerated his progression through the ranks, but I don't see anything in his military record that indicates to me that the Navy considered him a poor leader.

 

You definately do not riise in the military wiithout either displaying some ability or without having proper mentors. Eisenhower had the mentors and the ability, Colin Powell had the mentors and was really intelligents, but never comanded large formations. McCain never comanded the large formations. There is a huge differennce between fleet admirals and rear admirals. Soemwhere in McCains service something happend along the way that mmade people say no not him, he should not command a fleet. Why? What? Is it his firey temperment? Was it the fooling around (Yes that will impair your military career). But either way McCain has to have had a great deal of intelligence to be a naval aviator and to riise as high as he did, but why was he tracked to the desk and not to the bridge?

[Good Old Neon]

In a moment where he could have shown his committment to his buds and his country he waffled. Yes, this is the question. He is running for president. How he handled the situation is one, big, huge sign of his character. There are POWs that believe he waffled. He has blocked attempts to find POWs in Vietnam. These two points tend to lead people to seek what truly happened.

 

I believe it is fair to understand whether he sold out and therefore it is fair to speculate on the basis of his presidential contention.

 

I

[caliber66]

You definately do not riise in the military wiithout either displaying some ability or without having proper mentors. Eisenhower had the mentors and the ability, Colin Powell had the mentors and was really intelligents, but never comanded large formations. McCain never comanded the large formations. There is a huge differennce between fleet admirals and rear admirals. Soemwhere in McCains service something happend along the way that mmade people say no not him, he should not command a fleet. Why? What? Is it his firey temperment? Was it the fooling around (Yes that will impair your military career). But either way McCain has to have had a great deal of intelligence to be a naval aviator and to riise as high as he did, but why was he tracked to the desk and not to the bridge?

Well, certainly all the things you mentioned could have been factors, but the six year hole in the middle of his service probably played as great a role as any. How do you get back on track after spending that long in a cage?

[cryptique]

But either way McCain has to have had a great deal of intelligence to be a naval aviator and to riise as high as he did, but why was he tracked to the desk and not to the bridge?

His father and grandfather were both four-star admirals in the Navy. That could easily explain why he ended up as an aviator.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Also, this thread should probably be renamed "The new new new election thread," since it's not really about John Edwards anymore.

 

 

Edwards look pale and pathetic these days. He looked more believable and presidental when he sported his spray on tan.

 

and speaking of the election thread...

 

 

Like I already said, I'm done with the political threads.

[Sir Stewart]

So I have to had personally witnessed every piece of history and held hands with everyone since the beginning of time to have permission to research, debate, speculate, scrutinize, or discuss in any form anything about anything? Nice theory F-Bomber. Way to bring positive and informative debate to the table.You could learn something from the intelligent MEN in the posts above mine who don't seem to have the need to f-bomb and try and make people look like stupid jerks in order to get their points across.

 

How a man that wants the oval office conducts himself as a POW says a lot about how he will handle our country under extreme times, and on golf days. I think it's a wee bit important. And, I don't recall in any of my posts where I claim to be a know it all spouting POW shit out of my ass.I simply stated I don't know either way but can not find legit sources to his claims of being a war hero.Just his word against other POW's and government officials.

 

POW's seem to hate him. He votes for torture. According to many POW's he was called "Songbird McCain" for a reason.

 

Here is an example from Jack McLamb who served nine years in secret operations in Cambodia and

other nations before going on to become one of the most highly

decorated police officer's in Phoenix history, winning police officer

of the year twice before taking a role as a hostage negotiator for the

FBI.

 

Jack McLamb, a Vietnam veteran with top secret clearance says he has

personally spoken to numerous POW's who dispute John McCain's claim

that he refused to provide information after he was captured and

tortured in Hanoi, saying that in fact McCain's code-name was

"Songbird" because of his willingness to tell all to avoid torture.

 

His jailer claims they used to drink tea together talking discuss politics without any sort of torture. Several Vietnam veterans groups exist to expose McCain's torture lies and voting record on veterans issues.Research Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain and U.S. Veteran Dispatch. These doubts were brought up and used against him in his presidential campaign in 2000 . So with so many legit POW sources speaking out against him, and only McCain's word, it is fair to scrutinize and research his shit. I'd be stupid if I just blindly believed him. Unpatriotic even.

 

 

In 2004 this sort of thing was called "Swift Boating."

[Party @ the Moontower]

A (Vietnamese) crowd pulled him out and just about killed him

[caliber66]

His father and grandfather were both four-star admirals in the Navy. That could easily explain why he ended up as an aviator.

Admiral Grandaddy doesn't get you the Distinguished Flying Cross or make you able to land on an aircraft carrier. There's no way being a McCain didn't help him get in the pilot's seat initially, though.

[Party @ the Moontower]

In 2004 this sort of thing was called "Swift Boating."

 

 

Where was MCain in 2004 when it happened to his buddy Kerry? I know it's somewhat lame to post links, but this site has some sweet info with legit links to reality...and my brain hurts.I am quitting my job at the nazi spa today!

 

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/c...ure_voting_for/

[Good Old Neon]

a nice visual

 

 

I get your point, and I

[Party @ the Moontower]

Absolutely, it's how you vote that counts. And it would be hypocritical for Obama to call out McCain on his voting attendance.

 

McCain wasn't even there to vote on his own stupid gas tax holiday bill as well as a zillion other things even when not doing the I wanna get elected dance. He wasn't given the King of No Shows title just yesterday. He's been around a loooong time with no shows.