Wilco and atheism

[bjorn_skurj]

Because people who believe in Jesus, by definition, believe I am going to hell for being Jewish. And I can't help who my parents are. You can tell me that you don't believe this to be the case, but you are deviating from the teachings of your religion. So, I am not sure what you are basing that opinion on.

 

EDIT: (way to go, gary)

I don't think Episcopalians, or even Catholics now, hold that Jews are going to hell. In fact, our Sunday School class took a trip to a synagogue, and the tone was not, IIRC, "Lookit these fools who will burn in hellfire."

[uncool2pillow]

The silence here last more than a month... But now I think we're really going to start changing each others minds on this stuff.

[Spawn's dad]

[MattZ]

I don't think Episcopalians, or even Catholics now, hold that Jews are going to hell. In fact, our Sunday School class took a trip to a synagogue, and the tone was not, IIRC, "Lookit these fools who will burn in hellfire."

 

Well, maybe not by definition they (jews, muslims, etc) aren't going to hell. But don't people have to accept Jesus as the saviour to be saved? Isn't that basically the crux of the matter? Espiscopalians and Catholics don't believe this any more?

 

picture x2

 

Oh, now I get it. Thanks.

[Good Old Neon]

There's a difference between judging certain actions to be sinful versus believing specific individuals will go to hell for engaging in said actions. The Church can say that certain actions are wrong and that committing such actions make one more likely to end up in hell without specifically condemning anyone to hell. And I think you misinterpret the church's teachings on hell. It's not that when you die, God looks at a laundry list of the actions you committed and then decides whether you go to heaven or hell (or purgatory if you want to further complicate things). Instead, it's a choice that we make. Only those that choose to separate themselves from God (whatever you interpret that to mean; there's probably some wiggle room here) go to hell.

 

Well sure, but from an atheist

[M. (hristine]

The miracle is not to walk on water.

The miracle is to walk on the green earth...

- Thich Nhat Hanh

[lost highway]

- Thich Nhat Hanh

 

Now there is a man whose convictions I can look up to. Do you know he had a meditation/therapy retreat camp for American Vets of the Vietnam War? Hanh is Vietnamese and survived the war, witnessing many atrocities committed by American troops.

[Party @ the Moontower]

His 14 precepts are about as close to religion as I get. Love that dude.

Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.

-By Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh (From the book Interbeing)

 

[M. (hristine]

There are countless holy humans, both contemporary and historical. Why folks want to perpetually hold up the worst examples of so called spiritual belief and practice makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Good Old Neon]

- Thich Nhat Hanh

 

So, are you all suggesting that the preceding is not one of those really fun word jumbles, and that I can now stop trying to solve it?

[M. (hristine]

So, are you all suggesting that the preceding is not one of those really fun word jumbles, and that I can now stop trying to solve it?

I've tried to solve it too, and each time have come up empty.

[Good Old Neon]

There are countless holy humans, both contemporary and historical. Why folks want to perpetually hold up the worst examples of so called spiritual belief and practice makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

 

I just see them as fine examples of what it means to be truly human

[Good Old Neon]

I've tried to solve it too, and each time have come up empty.

 

Solved it!

 

Hitch than Hahn

[Party @ the Moontower]

Solved it!

 

Hitch than Hahn

 

 

Your going to hell, maybe coming back to earth, or something bad..really bad.

[yermom]

I've been pondering on "man is a useless passion." Nothingnesssssss...wheeee!

I'm losing it. But what is "it" anyway? Probably some hoo-ha construct of my human mind developed through evolution to help me perpetuate my selfish genes or something of that nature. Dudes and dudettes, life is complicated but so much fun (especially when food or nudity is involved.)

[bjorn_skurj]

Well, maybe not by definition they (jews, muslims, etc) aren't going to hell. But don't people have to accept Jesus as the saviour to be saved? Isn't that basically the crux of the matter? Espiscopalians and Catholics don't believe this any more?

I do know Episcopalians hold that Jews and Muslims worship the same God Christians do. I am looking for more specific info, but here is this nugget I took from an Episcopal church's website.

 

Will Episcopalians threaten me with eternal damnation in Hell?

We like to think that God makes those decisions and that we aren’t privy to them. We share hope in God’s incredibly extensive grace to forgive all repentant people. The prayer book says, "by hell, we mean eternal death in our rejection of God." Note that it does not say, "rejection by God." God rejects nobody, but he will not force us to love him either. That would be rape.

 

And this too, from another church website:

 

Do you think Jesus the Only Way?

 

We do believe that actions have consequences; we are realistic about human fallibility. We choose to have open conversations with other faiths as a way of learning about our own. We believe that “the way, the truth and the life” means that we must feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick and the imprisoned, offer drink to the thirsty. As we are unfamiliar with other journeys, it is difficult for us to judge them without having taken them ourselves. Poetically speaking, it may be that at the end of time, the good people of other traditions will find they have been following Jesus all along. Surely, if religions do follow the path of gratitude and peace and survive, they have. If they continue fighting each other, then perhaps they haven't. We don't believe people of other faiths are going to hell.

[MattZ]

There are countless holy humans, both contemporary and historical. Why folks want to perpetually hold up the worst examples of so called spiritual belief and practice makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

 

I half-assume that this is directed at my comment about being jewish and spending eternity in hell as a result (although maybe I am wrong). Look, I understand that I am being hyperbolic, but I am trying to be good natured about it and I say it with tongue planted firmly in cheek. But the fact remains that I fall into the atheist category, and I am trying to answer jakobnicholas's question honestly. Part of my biggest gripe about religion is the fact that different provisions appear to be up for debate after awhile if people decide they don't sit well with them. I know that Man has done a pretty bang up job of corrupting virtually everything he has come across so I don't put it past him to have corrupted the word of God either (if he exists). It just seems to me that one of the central tenets of religions (all of them) is that you need to believe that one specifically or else [insert punishment of choice]. That is something that is difficult for me to accept on its face, and the fact that some religions have mellowed in their position on it, serves as a strike against the religion (in my eyes) not a reason to celebrate it for being inclusive.

 

I have never attacked faith in general on here (or anyone specifically for their beliefs), and I do think much good (in addition to much bad) has come from religion and faith. I certainly didn't mean to damn anyone for their beliefs or hold up the "worst examples" of faith as a means to shoot it down. Just trying to answer jakobnicholas's question honestly.

[MattZ]

Poetically speaking, it may be that at the end of time, the good people of other traditions will find they have been following Jesus all along. Surely, if religions do follow the path of gratitude and peace and survive, they have.

 

I can live with this, I guess. I live a good life and treat people well. If you want to tell me that this is following "Jesus" even without explicitly believing in him specifically, ok, I guess. But to be honest, it sounds like my hebrew school teacher telling me that the 6 days that God took to create the world didn't REALLY have to be 6 days. Who knows how long 6 days were back then.

[M. (hristine]

I have never attacked faith in general on here (or anyone specifically for their beliefs), and I do think much good (in addition to much bad) has come from religion and faith. I certainly didn't mean to damn anyone for their beliefs or hold up the "worst examples" of faith as a means to shoot it down. Just trying to answer jakobnicholas's question honestly.

No, it was mostly a general sort of observation. While arguments on the veracity of the Bible and the logical existence of God are handily won in debate, the tendency to dismiss spiritual practice out of hand based on the worst examples of it just doesn't fly with me.

 

It's just that to really cultivate this:

 

"Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times."

 

is the only practice that really makes sense to me.

[MattZ]

is the only practice that really makes sense to me.

 

[Good Old Neon]

"Do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times."

 

It

[lost highway]

I return to the universal doctrine of love proclaimed by the Holy ones and inscribed upon thine Via Chicago discussion board: "Wilco will love you baby." So it has been written. So it shall be done.

[bjorn_skurj]

I can live with this, I guess. I live a good life and treat people well. If you want to tell me that this is following "Jesus" even without explicitly believing in him specifically, ok, I guess. But to be honest, it sounds like my hebrew school teacher telling me that the 6 days that God took to create the world didn't REALLY have to be 6 days. Who knows how long 6 days were back then.

With all the translations the Bible has been through, it seems easier to me to believe that God sent his son to earth to be crucified for our sins than the Bible is a completely accurate, unimpeachable source of history. Besides, are not Jews grandfathered in by the old covenant?

[ikol]

Well sure, but from an atheist

[Spawn's dad]

I heard Nickerson pissed off M. Chris again. Thank G-d they took away that broad's moderating powers.