Christ for President in Religulous

[TheMaker]

Jesus murdered people? That's news to me.

 

For a guy who was "without sin," Jesus says and does a lot of deplorable things in the Bible, either directly or through various proxies who carry out certain deeds for him. He had his disciples steal corn (on the Sabbath, no less), he personally stole an ass, he drove a herd of pigs insane (causing them to throw themselves off a cliff), and so on. Christ's bigotry is on stark display in Matthew, where he is shown to refuse a Canaanite woman an exorcism (spoooooky magic!) due to the fact that she is a non-Jew (although, in the interest of fairness, the woman's ceaseless pleading and his own exhorted disciples persuade Jesus to "waste" some of his time and energy on availing her).

 

Jesus wasn't as bad as, say, Moses (Numbers 31:17-19 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves"), or virtually any number of detestably vicious figures (including God) from the Old Testament and the Koran, but he is still, in spite of his sterling reputation among the faithful, a fairly wretched example of barbarism from a time that is thankfully well past us.

 

And yes, Jesus was a murderer. In Acts, he kills a man who refuses to give him his props by having worms devour his body. Particularly gruesome, I should think. In Luke 19:27, he tells his disciples to to bring before him any man who didn't believe in him and to slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (epic lulz, J.C. likes to watch). A very valid interpretation of Acts 5 is that Jesus Darth Vader'd the living fuck right out of the farmer and his wife who neglected to pony up God's share of dough they made from selling a piece of property.

 

But really, what the fuck do you want from a classless maniac who once razed a fig tree for not bearing fruit, even though he knew it wasn't even in season? Not much, I should hope.

[markosis]

Yay, another religion discussion. Excuse me a sec:

[Scalzunfield]

Yay, another religion discussion. Excuse me a sec:

 

I get a kick out of just reading this stuff actually. As a fellow atheist, it cracks me up when an atheist makes a great point and the rebuttal is along the lines of your above response. Goooooood times...

[Good Old Neon]

Yay, another religion discussion. Excuse me a sec:

 

I have what I think is a cure for your continued nausea - click me

[Analogman]

I have what I think is a cure for your continued nausea - click me

 

Listen - there is already two or three threads for you and whoever to debate this stuff back and forth. I understand you have a right to post what you want, but, do we really need to discuss such things in the Wilco section of the board? I mean, really.

[Doug C]

Despite my earlier post, Analogman has a point. This thread was created to discuss the use of a Wilco song in a film. If you want to debate religion in general, it would make sense to go to a thread dedicated to that.

Clearly, some of you love to try and rile one another. The maturity level appears low.

[Good Old Neon]

Listen - there is already two or three threads for you and whoever to debate this stuff back and forth. I understand you have a right to post what you want, but, do we really need to discuss such things in the Wilco section of the board? I mean, really.

 

I

[Analogman]

I

[Golden Smoghead]

Secondly, this is a very brave movie from a very brave director (Larry Charles, who helmed and also co-wrote Bob Dylan's brilliant but misunderstood cult classic "Masked and Anonymous", as well as the hilarious, bawdy and genuinely provocative "Borat"), so I think it deserves at least a modicum of respect from those who disagree with its thesis.

 

Thanks for dropping this knowledge on me. I'm not crazy enough about either Bill Maher or Bob Dylan to have heard of either movie before this thread ("Religulous" and "Masked and Anonymous"). I think I want to check them both out, now.

[markosis]

With that said, I still don

[orchestra]

For a guy who was "without sin," Jesus says and does a lot of deplorable things in the Bible, either directly or through various proxies who carry out certain deeds for him. He had his disciples steal corn (on the Sabbath, no less), he personally stole an ass, he drove a herd of pigs insane (causing them to throw themselves off a cliff), and so on. Christ's bigotry is on stark display in Matthew, where he is shown to refuse a Canaanite woman an exorcism (spoooooky magic!) due to the fact that she is a non-Jew (although, in the interest of fairness, the woman's ceaseless pleading and his own exhorted disciples persuade Jesus to "waste" some of his time and energy on availing her).

 

Jesus wasn't as bad as, say, Moses (Numbers 31:17-19 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves"), or virtually any number of detestably vicious figures (including God) from the Old Testament and the Koran, but he is still, in spite of his sterling reputation among the faithful, a fairly wretched example of barbarism from a time that is thankfully well past us.

 

And yes, Jesus was a murderer. In Acts, he kills a man who refuses to give him his props by having worms devour his body. Particularly gruesome, I should think. In Luke 19:27, he tells his disciples to to bring before him any man who didn't believe in him and to slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (epic lulz, J.C. likes to watch). A very valid interpretation of Acts 5 is that Jesus Darth Vader'd the living fuck right out of the farmer and his wife who neglected to pony up God's share of dough they made from selling a piece of property.

 

But really, what the fuck do you want from a classless maniac who once razed a fig tree for not bearing fruit, even though he knew it wasn't even in season? Not much, I should hope.

 

 

Shows what you know. That was all symbolic!

 

Of... of something.

[bobbob1313]

For a guy who was "without sin," Jesus says and does a lot of deplorable things in the Bible, either directly or through various proxies who carry out certain deeds for him. He had his disciples steal corn (on the Sabbath, no less), he personally stole an ass, he drove a herd of pigs insane (causing them to throw themselves off a cliff), and so on. Christ's bigotry is on stark display in Matthew, where he is shown to refuse a Canaanite woman an exorcism (spoooooky magic!) due to the fact that she is a non-Jew (although, in the interest of fairness, the woman's ceaseless pleading and his own exhorted disciples persuade Jesus to "waste" some of his time and energy on availing her).

 

Jesus wasn't as bad as, say, Moses (Numbers 31:17-19 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves"), or virtually any number of detestably vicious figures (including God) from the Old Testament and the Koran, but he is still, in spite of his sterling reputation among the faithful, a fairly wretched example of barbarism from a time that is thankfully well past us.

 

And yes, Jesus was a murderer. In Acts, he kills a man who refuses to give him his props by having worms devour his body. Particularly gruesome, I should think. In Luke 19:27, he tells his disciples to to bring before him any man who didn't believe in him and to slaughter the non-believer while Jesus watched (epic lulz, J.C. likes to watch). A very valid interpretation of Acts 5 is that Jesus Darth Vader'd the living fuck right out of the farmer and his wife who neglected to pony up God's share of dough they made from selling a piece of property.

 

But really, what the fuck do you want from a classless maniac who once razed a fig tree for not bearing fruit, even though he knew it wasn't even in season? Not much, I should hope.

 

So Jesus existed to you, and the bible should be taken for it's literal word?

[JUDE]

Just a thought, but instead of complaining about this threads relevance and placement in the "Wilco Section" maybe you could PM a mod and have them review the current thread. I'm sure if the content is sufficiently off topic, they could merge this with one of the other 3 current similar threads.

 

 

Carry on.

[TheMaker]

So Jesus existed to you, and the bible should be taken for it's literal word?

 

Stop being disingenuous. I don't know how you're set as far as your commitments go (aren't you the guy who basically sees every Wilco show in the Western world, or am I thinking of a different poster?), but I certainly don't have the time to repeat myself endlessly. You know my stance on religion (that it's total, unadulterated bullshit), thanks to our last go-round. I was merely addressing the Biblical record, which is quite different from the historical one.

 

My point, since you clearly need to have it spelled out for you, is that not only is religion a fantasy, it is also contradictory and morally ambiguous. But don't worry - generations of religious scholars and thinkers have tailored scripture to fit their purposes. If you need to believe that Jesus is/was (WILCO REFERENCE GUYS LOL) real and that he was without sin, by all means - have a fucking party, dude. Just knock yourself right straight out! The sheer idiocy of revised Christianity allows - and generally even encourages - you to do this rather easily. We have moderates to thank for that!

[the carlos]

Stop being disingenuous. I don't know how you're set as far as your commitments go (aren't you the guy who basically sees every Wilco show in the Western world, or am I thinking of a different poster?)..

I think you're thinking of me.

[mountain bed]

I think you're thinking of me.

I thought it was me!

 

What are the odds of us both doing all those shows and still never meeting each other?

[the carlos]

I thought it was me!

 

What are the odds of us both doing all those shows and still never meeting each other?

so many shows...so little time or something?

[Sir Stewart]

hahaha. that was funny when i was 8. grow up.

[bobbob1313]

I've seen Wilco 4 times, I think. I did see Jeff once. Said "hi" and everything.

 

I just really don't understand why people can't just let other people believe stuff and not worry about whether it makes them hypocrits. It literally has no impact on your life. Just like you don't like religious people pushing their crap on you.

[orchestra]

I just really don't understand why people can't just let other people believe stuff and not worry about whether it makes them hypocrits. It literally has no impact on your life. Just like you don't like religious people pushing their crap on you.

 

Religion has a huge impact on everyone's lives, follower or not. Maybe my neighbors aren't holding me down and shouting scripture into my face, but my government and my society adhere to a school of thought that isn't based on rational thought or evidence. I think that is a bad thing. I think it weighs negatively on our whole.

 

Can you see why a person who doesn't believe in a God would care?

[bobbob1313]

no. Not so far as a persons personal beliefs go. I'm an atheist too.

[markosis]

Here's my .02:

[TheMaker]

Sorry for mixing you up with somebody else, bobbob. At any rate, orchestra's got the right idea. I presented numerous examples of how religion poisons thought in that other thread, ranging from the myriad ways it inspires violence and war, to the knack it has for stifling free inquiry at even the most basic and unconscious level.

 

You might argue that you're protecting only moderates with your well-intentioned tolerance, and that may seem fine to many on the surface; moderates aren't as constrained in their beliefs as fundamentalists, but they nonetheless enable the destructive fantasies of, say, hardcore Christianity and radicalized Islam to tear a rather horrifying swath through 21st Century reality by providing cover for the beliefs of their adherents. "What they believe is valid," argues the moderate brainlessly, "it's simply a rigid, authoritarian version of the word of god. Times change, and so too must the unchanging law of god. We just don't say it like that, of course!" Among non-believers, the "permissive atheist" provides the same kind of cover for the fundamentalist. If you're going to call yourself an atheist, the very least you can do, in my opinion, is call religion on the carpet to atone for its "sins."

 

Religion does damage. Individual beliefs in unprovable nonsense have a way of becoming collective beliefs in unprovable nonsense. One has a way of becoming many. This is how cults tend to function, regardless of their size or tax-exempt status. Unprovable nonsense has a way of wanting to indoctrinate, coerce and otherwise assert its wild truth claims pertaining to nothing less than the entire fucking universe. We have seen this again and again and again and again throughout our history. Empires frequently cite divine providence as a justifiable cause when supporting their state-building enterprises.

 

Sure, there are more land claims in the Middle East than you can shake a stick at, but most parties agree that they are there according to the will of god. Muslims resent Jews and have done so for centuries. I don't think anybody can accuse me of tarring with a broad brush when I say that many in the Middle East would not think twice before visiting bodily harm on a Jew (or Christian, for that matter). We see this frequently with incursions into Israel's borders, usually involving bullets and rockets. Meanwhile, Jews make assertive, often callous land-grabs based on little more than mythology dating to the Old Testament. Top elected politicians in the modern democratic state of Israel refer to Palestinians as being "no better than dogs." The president of Iran, meanwhile, denies that the Holocaust ever happened and refers to Israel as a "rotting corpse" while threatening to erase it from existence with absolutely stunning regularity. Crazy, crazy motherfucking shit happens in the name of religion. We need not look back to the Crusades to find further examples of this insane behaviour. We see other struggles around the world even today, pathetic and tragic as that statement surely is. The Sunni/Shia split. The sinister influence of Islam in Europe. India and Pakistan. There can be no religious solutions to religious problems. (I would apologize for appearing to "pick on" Islam in these examples if I gave a flying fucking shit about offending Muhammed, PBUH. Fortunately, I do not.)

 

Since this thread is about a Larry Charles film, does anybody remember the astonishing scene in Borat during which an American politician suggests that Jews will not ascend to Heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour? It's a rather disquieting moment, and it's an interesting proof of how even "nice, upstanding" folks can be polluted by their religion into thinking less of people who do not subscribe to their patently ridiculous beliefs. This is how sinister religious thought truly is, and it's a fine illustration of how holy war is perhaps not even the most appalling "sin" committed in the name of religion. Religion is far from innocuous even among those who do not engage in violence or acts of war.

 

For example, Bible-based arguments abound which prohibit sex education from being taught in a transparent, shameless and comprehensive fashion even in many North American schools. Instead of teaching the Third World to embrace safe sex, the church has encouraged a veritable holocaust of poverty, starvation and AIDS, all for the sake of a bunch of phoney-baloney bullshit that is not only manifestly untrue, but which does us no good whatsoever.

 

The resurgence of polio in North Africa and the Middle East also owes a tremendous debt to religion. Last year in Pakistan, a senior government official was killed when he was returning from a tribal council to convince people to immunize their children against the disease. Armed "prayer leaders" warned the politician's entourage against dispelling local misconceptions about the vaccine's benefits. These same men had earlier informed the tribe that the government was there only to spread "Western vulgarity," and that the polio vaccine would in fact do them harm. I wish I could say that this sort of calamity were some kind of fluke, but the fact of the matter is that this sort of thing has been happening in Africa for years. And polio is gaining tremendous ground in this part of the world. Thanks again, religion! For nothing at all. (On-topic! I'd like to thank religion for NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING at all.)

 

I personally stand to benefit from an economy the size of the United States experimenting in an unhindered fashion with stem cell research. So do millions more. I like the idea of millions and millions of madmen not wanting to see you, bobbob, as well as I, as symbols of "Western decadence" that must be destroyed. I don't like it when fat, stupid, useless, stupid, disgusting, stupid, inhuman, stupid, cunt-for-brains assholes like Falwell and Robertson blame our gay friends for 9/11. I don't like it when sexually ambiguous teens are murdered with astounding ferocity because their PERCEIVED lifestyle is "against god."

 

You cannot deny that religion is the greatest poison of all fucking time. I simply don't understand how you can call yourself an atheist, a materialist, or a secular humanist and pretend that you don't observe archaic religious thought poisoning the living fuck out of our planet on an almost hourly basis. Please do not deny deny this.

 

I'm finished with this subject on this forum. I hope at least some of you will read this and think about it.

[Demon Moving Forward]

Sorry for mixing you up with somebody else, bobbob. At any rate, orchestra's got the right idea. I presented numerous examples of how religion poisons thought in that other thread, ranging from the myriad ways it inspires violence and war, to the knack it has for stifling free inquiry at even the most basic and unconscious level.

 

You might argue that you're protecting only moderates with your well-intentioned tolerance, and that may seem fine to many on the surface; moderates aren't as constrained in their beliefs as fundamentalists, but they nonetheless enable the destructive fantasies of, say, hardcore Christianity and radicalized Islam to tear a rather horrifying swath through 21st Century reality by providing cover for the beliefs of their adherents. "What they believe is valid," argues the moderate brainlessly, "it's simply a rigid, authoritarian version of the word of god. Times change, and so too must the unchanging law of god. We just don't say it like that, of course!" Among non-believers, the "permissive atheist" provides the same kind of cover for the fundamentalist. If you're going to call yourself an atheist, the very least you can do, in my opinion, is call religion on the carpet to atone for its "sins."

 

Religion does damage. Individual beliefs in unprovable nonsense have a way of becoming collective beliefs in unprovable nonsense. One has a way of becoming many. This is how cults tend to function, regardless of their size or tax-exempt status. Unprovable nonsense has a way of wanting to indoctrinate, coerce and otherwise assert its wild truth claims pertaining to nothing less than the entire fucking universe. We have seen this again and again and again and again throughout our history. Empires frequently cite divine providence as a justifiable cause when supporting their state-building enterprises.

 

Sure, there are more land claims in the Middle East than you can shake a stick at, but most parties agree that they are there according to the will of god. Muslims resent Jews and have done so for centuries. I don't think anybody can accuse me of tarring with a broad brush when I say that many in the Middle East would not think twice before visiting bodily harm on a Jew (or Christian, for that matter). We see this frequently with incursions into Israel's borders, usually involving bullets and rockets. Meanwhile, Jews make assertive, often callous land-grabs based on little more than mythology dating to the Old Testament. Top elected politicians in the modern democratic state of Israel refer to Palestinians as being "no better than dogs." The president of Iran, meanwhile, denies that the Holocaust ever happened and refers to Israel as a "rotting corpse" while threatening to erase it from existence with absolutely stunning regularity. Crazy, crazy motherfucking shit happens in the name of religion. We need not look back to the Crusades to find further examples of this insane behaviour. We see other struggles around the world even today, pathetic and tragic as that statement surely is. The Sunni/Shia split. The sinister influence of Islam in Europe. India and Pakistan. There can be no religious solutions to religious problems. (I would apologize for appearing to "pick on" Islam in these examples if I gave a flying fucking shit about offending Muhammed, PBUH. Fortunately, I do not.)

 

Since this thread is about a Larry Charles film, does anybody remember the astonishing scene in Borat during which an American politician suggests that Jews will not ascend to Heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour? It's a rather disquieting moment, and it's an interesting proof of how even "nice, upstanding" folks can be polluted by their religion into thinking less of people who do not subscribe to their patently ridiculous beliefs. This is how sinister religious thought truly is, and it's a fine illustration of how holy war is perhaps not even the most appalling "sin" committed in the name of religion. Religion is far from innocuous even among those who do not engage in violence or acts of war.

 

For example, Bible-based arguments abound which prohibit sex education from being taught in a transparent, shameless and comprehensive fashion even in many North American schools. Instead of teaching the Third World to embrace safe sex, the church has encouraged a veritable holocaust of poverty, starvation and AIDS, all for the sake of a bunch of phoney-baloney bullshit that is not only manifestly untrue, but which does us no good whatsoever.

 

The resurgence of polio in North Africa and the Middle East also owes a tremendous debt to religion. Last year in Pakistan, a senior government official was killed when he was returning from a tribal council to convince people to immunize their children against the disease. Armed "prayer leaders" warned the politician's entourage against dispelling local misconceptions about the vaccine's benefits. These same men had earlier informed the tribe that the government was there only to spread "Western vulgarity," and that the polio vaccine would in fact do them harm. I wish I could say that this sort of calamity were some kind of fluke, but the fact of the matter is that this sort of thing has been happening in Africa for years. And polio is gaining tremendous ground in this part of the world. Thanks again, religion! For nothing at all. (On-topic! I'd like to thank religion for NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING at all.)

 

I personally stand to benefit from an economy the size of the United States experimenting in an unhindered fashion with stem cell research. So do millions more. I like the idea of millions and millions of madmen not wanting to see you, bobbob, as well as I, as symbols of "Western decadence" that must be destroyed. I don't like it when fat, stupid, useless, stupid, disgusting, stupid, inhuman, stupid, cunt-for-brains assholes like Falwell and Robertson blame our gay friends for 9/11. I don't like it when sexually ambiguous teens are murdered with astounding ferocity because their PERCEIVED lifestyle is "against god."

 

You cannot deny that religion is the greatest poison of all fucking time. I simply don't understand how you can call yourself an atheist, a materialist, or a secular humanist and pretend that you don't observe archaic religious thought poisoning the living fuck out of our planet on an almost hourly basis. Please do not deny deny this.

 

I'm finished with this subject on this forum. I hope at least some of you will read this and think about it.

 

I agree with every single word in this post.

[Spawn's dad]

I'm finished with this subject on this forum.

 

I call bullshit.