MLB 2008-09 Hot Stove League

[bobbob1313]

Well, at least it didn't go to Morneau again.

 

I mean, whatever. He definitely wasn't the best player in the league (Milton Bradley or A-Rod), but he's the same size as David Eckstein and he had a pretty good year in a year when nobody dominated, so I understand why he got it. I don't have a massive problem with this. I won't say more than that, lest I be accused of raining on yet another Red Sox parade.

[explodo]

Fuck the Red Sox. Bobsquared, take it to 'em.

[bobbob1313]

Chase Utley, for example, was a better hitter throughout the season than Howard was, and plays a harder position better than Howard plays his easier one

 

According to the Fielding Bible, Utley was also far and away the best defensive 2B in the league with a +47 (NL Gold Glove Winner Brandon Phillips, for example, scored a +17, good for 4th). I would've had much less of a problem with Utley than Howard.

[Lammycat]

I mean, whatever. He definitely wasn't the best player in the league....

No, just the most valuable.

[bobbob1313]

No, just the most valuable.

 

Maybe. It's entirely possible. Three guys who might've been more valuable all missed about 20-30 games (A-Rod, Bradley, Quentin). So yeah, it's either him or Joe Mauer. Both guys who play difficult defensive positions pretty well (Mauer's probably better), and both who don't hit for a ton of power (Pedroia's got the edge here). Mauer had a 37 point advantage in OBP, but their OPS were pretty much dead even. I'd probably give it to Mauer, because he plays a more difficult position and had a much better OBP.

 

He also played 139 games at catcher, which is kind of absurd, if you think about it. So yeah, Mauer was more valuable, but Pedroia isn't a Morneau or Howard level terrible choice.

[Winston Legthigh]

I think the MVP vote should factor in GM input - Ask all the GMs who would be the one player (salary notwithstanding) they would steal from another team. There's your most valuable player.

[Guest Jules]

I think the MVP vote should factor in GM input - Ask all the GMs who would be the one player (salary notwithstanding) they would steal from another team. There's your most valuable player.

Well, then Pedroia's out.

[MrRain422]

If I were a GM, if I could choose any one player, it would probably be a young, awesome, still improving player, rather than a guy who's already in his peak and just finished having his career year, which is often who the MVP is (though not really this year -- this may have been Pujols's career year, but he'll have a lot more GREAT years, and Pedroia...I don't know, he's young enough that he could still be improving, but he may have already hit his ceiling, sort of tough to tell with him). I think there are probably a couple dozen players I'd pick for my team over Pedroia who would have been worse selections for MVP than he was this year, like Miguel Cabrera, or Evan Longoria, or Grady Sizemore.

[PigSooie]

Albert Pujols is the best player in baseball, and it's not even close.

[Sir Stewart]

Anyway, congrats to lil Pedey.

[Lammycat]

The Little Pony.

[CrushOfVeils80]

Pedoria is more valuable than Joe Mauer? I dont buy that

 

Agreed Pujols is the best player, I dont like the Cards but he is by far the best, his numbers are sick and if he retired today he would probably still be a hall of famer

[mfwahl]

Pedoria is more valuable than Joe Mauer? I dont buy that

Mauer's team didn't go to the playoffs

 

Cubs re-sign Dempster.

 

Submit questions to Scott Boarass:

http://transcripts.usatoday.com/Chats/transcript.aspx?c=1842

[Lammycat]

Pedoria is more valuable than Joe Mauer? I dont buy that

 

Agreed Pujols is the best player, I dont like the Cards but he is by far the best, his numbers are sick and if he retired today he would probably still be a hall of famer

How do you not buy that he was more valuable to his team than Mauer was to his? How do you not buy that his character, disposition, loyalty, and effort outweighed Mauer's? How do you not buy the number of games he played?

 

Really, it's pretty much a toss-up between Pedroia and Mauer imo, but the BBWA saw it more clearly than I did. It's certainly merited regardless.

[bobbob1313]

If I were a GM, if I could choose any one player, it would probably be a young, awesome, still improving player, rather than a guy who's already in his peak and just finished having his career year, which is often who the MVP is (though not really this year -- this may have been Pujols's career year, but he'll have a lot more GREAT years, and Pedroia...I don't know, he's young enough that he could still be improving, but he may have already hit his ceiling, sort of tough to tell with him). I think there are probably a couple dozen players I'd pick for my team over Pedroia who would have been worse selections for MVP than he was this year, like Miguel Cabrera, or Evan Longoria, or Grady Sizemore.

 

My top 5 most valuable using that standard would be:

 

1. Hanley Ramirez (24)

2. Prince Fielder (24)

3. Miguel Cabrera (25)

4. BJ Upton (24)

5. David Wright (25)

[PigSooie]

My top 5 most valuable using that standard would be:

 

1. Hanley Ramirez (24)

2. Prince Fielder (24)

3. Miguel Cabrera (25)

4. BJ Upton (24)

5. David Wright (25)

 

 

Where would you put Longoria?

[bobbob1313]

How do you not buy that he was more valuable to his team than Mauer was to his? How do you not buy that his character, disposition, loyalty, and effort outweighed Mauer's? How do you not buy the number of games he played?

 

Woah, woah, woah.

 

How the hell can anyone pretend to know or say that Pedroia is more loyal than Mauer to his team, or has more character and puts more effort into the game than him. That's a ridiculous thing to say, because none of that can be quantified or proven, and since none of know either of the guys personally there's no point discussing that. So to imply that Pedroia somehow wins the intangibles-off over Mauer is really out there.

 

And the number of games played argument holds no water for me, because Mauer played an insane number of games at the most phyiscally demanding position on the field.

 

You can argue that, due to position scarcity and a fairly high number of injuries to his teammates (plus the overblown Manny-gate crap), Pedroia's stability and consistency was a boon to his team, which ultimately was more valuable than what Mauer contributed. but it's really not helpful to your cause to throw out completely unprovable things like that.

[bobbob1313]

Where would you put Longoria?

 

I don't know. He's younger than all of them, but not so young that I would be willing to put him above the rest of those guys who have produced more.

 

On second thought, however, I would probably move BJ off the list and put Lincecum in his place. I'm enamored with BJ's insane patience, but the power dropoff last year is concerning.

 

I guess I'd round out the top 10 like this:

 

6. BJ Upton

7. Longoria

8. Justin Upton

9. Ryan Braun

10. Felix Hernandez

 

 

 

For fun, here's Bill James' list:

 

1. Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers first baseman, age 24

 2. Hanley Ramirez, Florida Marlins shortstop, age 24

 3. Tim Lincecum, San Francisco Giants pitcher, age 24

 4. David Wright, New York Mets third baseman, age 25

 5. Ryan Braun, Milwaukee Brewers left fielder, age 24

 6. Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox second baseman, age 24

 7. Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers center fielder, age 23

 8. Francisco Rodriguez, Los Angeles Angels pitcher, age 26

 9. Jose Reyes, New York Mets shortstop, age 25

10. Nick Markakis, Baltimore Orioles right fielder, age 24

11. Joakim Soria, Kansas City Royals pitcher, age 24

12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals third baseman, age 23

13. Cole Hamels, Philadelphia Phillies pitcher, age 24

14. Troy Tulowitzki, Colorado Rockies shortstop, age 23

15. Felix Hern! andez, Seattle Mariners pitcher, age 22

16. Jon Lester, Boston Red Sox pitcher, age 24

17. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays third baseman, age 22

18. John Danks, Chicago White Sox pitcher, age 23

19. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres first baseman, age 26

20. James Loney, Los Angeles Dodgers first baseman, age 24

21. Stephen Drew, Arizona Diamondbacks shortstop, age 25

22. Brian McCann, Atlanta Braves catcher, age 24

23. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers first baseman, age 25

24. Grady Sizemore, Cleveland Indians center fielder, age 25

25. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds first baseman, age 24

[Lammycat]

But those intangibles are part of what helps the BBWA decide whom to vote for. That's the point.

[MrRain422]

But those intangibles are part of what helps the BBWA decide whom to vote for. That's the point.

 

Sure, but the writers don't know about those "intangibles" any more than most of the fans do. Most writers only really cover one team.

 

 

For fun, here's Bill James' list:

 

1. Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers first baseman, age 24

 2. Hanley Ramirez, Florida Marlins shortstop, age 24

 3. Tim Lincecum, San Francisco Giants pitcher, age 24

 4. David Wright, New York Mets third baseman, age 25

 5. Ryan Braun, Milwaukee Brewers left fielder, age 24

 6. Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox second baseman, age 24

 7. Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers center fielder, age 23

 8. Francisco Rodriguez, Los Angeles Angels pitcher, age 26

 9. Jose Reyes, New York Mets shortstop, age 25

10. Nick Markakis, Baltimore Orioles right fielder, age 24

11. Joakim Soria, Kansas City Royals pitcher, age 24

12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals third baseman, age 23

13. Cole Hamels, Philadelphia Phillies pitcher, age 24

14. Troy Tulowitzki, Colorado Rockies shortstop, age 23

15. Felix Hern! andez, Seattle Mariners pitcher, age 22

16. Jon Lester, Boston Red Sox pitcher, age 24

17. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays third baseman, age 22

18. John Danks, Chicago White Sox pitcher, age 23

19. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres first baseman, age 26

20. James Loney, Los Angeles Dodgers first baseman, age 24

21. Stephen Drew, Arizona Diamondbacks shortstop, age 25

22. Brian McCann, Atlanta Braves catcher, age 24

23. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers first baseman, age 25

24. Grady Sizemore, Cleveland Indians center fielder, age 25

25. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds first baseman, age 24

 

What's the criteria here? Players likely to be the best over what period of time? Or is it all guys under a certain age? Because if we're talking about player I'd most like on my team over the next, say, two years, I'd still have A-Rod in my top 5 and Johan in my top 10, but if we're talking about over the next 10 years, then not so much.

[bobbob1313]

But those intangibles are part of what helps the BBWA decide whom to vote for. That's the point.

 

And the various sports writers outside of Boston of Minneapolis who have covered the two for 6 games each over the course of the last season know them well enough to know that Dustin Pedroia lets his teammates sleep on his couch and gently holds and caresses them as they weep in their sleep after their wives kick them out, while Joe Mauer molests his teammate's kids.

 

This is why I hate 'intangibles'. You can pretty much say whatever you want to prove a point as long as you intangible it up enough. Dustin Pedroia doesn't have better stats than Joe Mauer but you want to give him the MVP? Intangibles!

 

 

What's the criteria here? Players likely to be the best over what period of time? Or is it all guys under a certain age? Because if we're talking about player I'd most like on my team over the next, say, two years, I'd still have A-Rod in my top 5 and Johan in my top 10, but if we're talking about over the next 10 years, then not so much.

 

Future value, is how I made my list. James' list is specifically the top 25 young major league players.

[CrushOfVeils80]

How do you not buy that he was more valuable to his team than Mauer was to his? How do you not buy that his character, disposition, loyalty, and effort outweighed Mauer's? How do you not buy the number of games he played?

 

Really, it's pretty much a toss-up between Pedroia and Mauer imo, but the BBWA saw it more clearly than I did. It's certainly merited regardless.

 

 

character? disposition? Who cares, Im not saying it doesnt matter but as far as the MVP who cares its not an issue

 

The Red Sox were supposed to be good and Pedroia hits in front or Big Papi, Youk, and for most of the season Manny....The Twins were picked last by just about everyone, they traded Johan Santana and Liriano was hurt for most of the year, Mauer did an amazing job with that young- inexperienced pitching staff and won the batting title, he for sure has an arguement over Pedroia, but yes the BBWA have spoken, they are wrong but they have spoken

 

Mauer's team didn't go to the playoffs

 

Cubs re-sign Dempster.

 

Submit questions to Scott Boarass:

http://transcripts.usatoday.com/Chats/transcript.aspx?c=1842

 

 

Pujols even said himself the MVP should go to someone who made the playoffs....Mauer technically made the playoffs, a one game playoff with the White Sox

 

Woah, woah, woah.

 

How the hell can anyone pretend to know or say that Pedroia is more loyal than Mauer to his team, or has more character and puts more effort into the game than him. That's a ridiculous thing to say, because none of that can be quantified or proven, and since none of know either of the guys personally there's no point discussing that. So to imply that Pedroia somehow wins the intangibles-off over Mauer is really out there.

 

And the number of games played argument holds no water for me, because Mauer played an insane number of games at the most phyiscally demanding position on the field.

 

You can argue that, due to position scarcity and a fairly high number of injuries to his teammates (plus the overblown Manny-gate crap), Pedroia's stability and consistency was a boon to his team, which ultimately was more valuable than what Mauer contributed. but it's really not helpful to your cause to throw out completely unprovable things like that.

 

 

for what its worth Mauer is from St Paul, Im sure he is loyal to the Twins and will sign for less come free agency time, Id be shocked if he doesnt

 

If Mauer played in a major market he would have the MVP award, lets not think for a second Pedroia being a Red Sock didnt play into the medias call on the MVP

 

I don't know. He's younger than all of them, but not so young that I would be willing to put him above the rest of those guys who have produced more.

 

On second thought, however, I would probably move BJ off the list and put Lincecum in his place. I'm enamored with BJ's insane patience, but the power dropoff last year is concerning.

 

I guess I'd round out the top 10 like this:

 

6. BJ Upton

7. Longoria

8. Justin Upton

9. Ryan Braun

10. Felix Hernandez

 

 

 

For fun, here's Bill James' list:

 

1. Prince Fielder, Milwaukee Brewers first baseman, age 24

 2. Hanley Ramirez, Florida Marlins shortstop, age 24

 3. Tim Lincecum, San Francisco Giants pitcher, age 24

 4. David Wright, New York Mets third baseman, age 25

 5. Ryan Braun, Milwaukee Brewers left fielder, age 24

 6. Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox second baseman, age 24

 7. Matt Kemp, Los Angeles Dodgers center fielder, age 23

 8. Francisco Rodriguez, Los Angeles Angels pitcher, age 26

 9. Jose Reyes, New York Mets shortstop, age 25

10. Nick Markakis, Baltimore Orioles right fielder, age 24

11. Joakim Soria, Kansas City Royals pitcher, age 24

12. Ryan Zimmerman, Washington Nationals third baseman, age 23

13. Cole Hamels, Philadelphia Phillies pitcher, age 24

14. Troy Tulowitzki, Colorado Rockies shortstop, age 23

15. Felix Hern! andez, Seattle Mariners pitcher, age 22

16. Jon Lester, Boston Red Sox pitcher, age 24

17. Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays third baseman, age 22

18. John Danks, Chicago White Sox pitcher, age 23

19. Adrian Gonzalez, San Diego Padres first baseman, age 26

20. James Loney, Los Angeles Dodgers first baseman, age 24

21. Stephen Drew, Arizona Diamondbacks shortstop, age 25

22. Brian McCann, Atlanta Braves catcher, age 24

23. Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers first baseman, age 25

24. Grady Sizemore, Cleveland Indians center fielder, age 25

25. Joey Votto, Cincinnati Reds first baseman, age 24

 

 

interesting list and a fun debate, I think Hanley Ramirez should be #1 though and Grady Sizemore is way too low

[bjorn_skurj]

Game 163 is considered a regular-season game.

[bobbob1313]

for what its worth Mauer is from St Paul, Im sure he is loyal to the Twins and will sign for less come free agency time, Id be shocked if he doesnt

 

If Mauer played in a major market he would have the MVP award, lets not think for a second Pedroia being a Red Sock didnt play into the medias call on the MVP

 

Oh, I definitely think if it came to it, Mauer's probably much more loyal to the city of Minneapolis and the Twins than Pedroia to Boston and the Red Sox, though I don't like that kind of discussion to muddy what should be a strictly performance award.

 

And there are a number of reasons Pedroia won it over Mauer. Major market has a lot to do with it, and also Pedroia's mighty mouse stature. If Pedroia puts up the numbers he did this year and he's 6-0, 200 lbs like Ian Kinsler or 5-11, 200 lbs like Dan Uggla, or 6-1, 200 lbs like Chase Utley (to name 3 2B that had better years than Pedroia) he's not the AL MVP right now. Sports writers love small, "gritty" players (Notice it's only 5-9 white guys who are called gritty).

[Lammycat]

Listen, I'm just re-stating the merits for the award that Mr.Rain posted. Yeah, they are heavily based on intangibles. So, it is an issue. I also said it'd be a coin toss between Mauer and Pedroia if I was voting. Saying you "don't buy" the fact that Pedroia won it over Mauer doesn't hold water for me if intangibles are being voted on.

 

I didn't say Pedroia scores better in the "intangibles" column, necessarily, but enough of the people who vote apparently did.

 

And no, I don't think the BBWA got it wrong. Because he plays for the Red Sox he got it? Please.

 

ed. And, Pedroia might be 5'9" in high heels....