Duck-Billed Catechist Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Well, is there anyone here willing to make the case that Rice was a good fielder? Isn't that what started the argument? Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Well, is there anyone here willing to make the case that Rice was a good fielder? Isn't that what started the argument?Rice may have been the catalyst for the argument, but I posed the hypothetical fielding example to talk about these statistics, not about Rice. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I'd also suggest that DPs alone aren't a fair judge of much as a stat because, like wins and RBIs (the bane of the Bill James crowd), they are dependent on what other players on your team have done. And because DPs (depending on the speed of the hitter) are often hard hit ground balls that give the fielders the time to turn two. There's little difference in reality (other than luck perhaps) between a hard hit ball just out of the reach of the SS and a hard hit ball hit directly at a SS resulting in a DP. Well, other than one results in a hit (ie, good) and one results in a DP (ie, bad x2). So, a plus or a major negative can result from the virtually same ball in play. In "old school" baseball (since I don't have a better term for it), you tipped your cap to the defense if they turned 2 on your hard hit ground ball. Hitting the ball hard was the goal and how fate treated you after that was up to the baseball gods. The sabremetricians of the world, note 6-4-3 in their book and forget about the event until 20 years later when evaluating the player. And the player gets knocked for hitting into the DP. Not entirely fair, not entirely representative of the situation. And a good example of why stats can be misleading. Also, bobbob, why do you continually throw up your hands and say it's not worth it and then continue arguing? I'm a glutton for punishment. And yeah, there is certainly an element of bad luck involved with his high number of double plays, but in Rice's case he also had tons of good luck with his RBI and R numbers because of the lineup he was in and his HR and SLG because of the park. I'm just pointing out that there are 'hidden' aspects of his game that take a lot of value out of his career that people don't really look at. Cryptique, the point of statistics isn't to account for a single event, but to make an accurate assessment of a whole season or career. What you keep going back to are the variables of a single event, but that doesn't really matter. +/- is able to make judgements on a player's defensive value for a whole season. You can make a solid, realistic, accurate judgment of a single play on your own, but once you start dealing with large amounts of data you are going to get much better results from something that actually has some backing to it. I actually care about this, so it's good for me. You don't, so it's not. You keep saying that all of this detracts from the enjoyment of the game. How? You've yet to answer that. And cut the cult crap out, you sound like an asshole. You are just as firmly entrenched in your ideas as anyone else, so stop pretending I'm the only one who isn't willing to open their mind. Link to post Share on other sites
rareair Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 q: how many days until pitchers and catchers report? a: not soon enough. Link to post Share on other sites
PigSooie Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 q: how many days until pitchers and catchers report? a: not soon enough. Feb 14 is what they are reporting on radio around here. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 14, 2009 Author Share Posted January 14, 2009 BOS schedule: Truck Day @ 2/7-2/9 2/12 Pitchers/catchers report. 2/14 First workout for pitchers/catchers. 2/16 Position players report. 2/18 First workout for the entire squad. Link to post Share on other sites
PigSooie Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 BOS schedule: Truck Day @ 2/7-2/9 I always love the pictures from this. Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I always love the pictures from this.I can see why, but up here it's effing embarrassing how much play those trucks get in the media that day (particularly over the past 1/2 decade). Link to post Share on other sites
PigSooie Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I can see why, but up here it's effing embarrassing how much play those trucks get in the media that day (particularly over the past 1/2 decade). I just like seeing the duffle bags, tubs of bubble gum, pocket pussies, baseball gear, etc the guys take with them. Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 You proved that Rice is considered a dickhead by everyone? Where? I didn't say I proved it, just that I addressed it. But if you really want to be a weiner about it, I will concede that I should have said that Rice is generally considered to be a dickhead, not that he is considered to be one by pretty much everyone. Mea culpa. q: how many days until pitchers and catchers report? a: not soon enough. I agree with this. Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I didn't say I proved it, just that I addressed it. But if you really want to be a weiner about it, I will concede that I should have said that Rice is generally considered to be a dickhead, not that he is considered to be one by pretty much everyone. Mea culpa. Don't call me a weiner. Give me something - any kind of evidence of him being considered a jerk, a dickhead, or whatever. Anything.Actually - if it's a member of the media who covered him in his playing days, it doesn't count. They're babies anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I agree with this.Quadrupled. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 52,000 hits for "Jim rice asshole" on google. He's not the first person to suggest it. He was probably no more an asshole than any other famous professional athlete assholes. But he probably wasn't a very likeable guy. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 239,000 google hits for "Jim Rice nice guy"and1,390,000 for "Jim Rice HOF" Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Stewart Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 No results found for "marlins world series post-2003". Just fuckin around...Christ I'm not even a big Jim Rice fan. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Jim Rice was awesome! Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Jim Rice was awesome!234,000 google hits for "Jim Rice was awesome!" Must be true. Link to post Share on other sites
jenbobblehead Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I always love the pictures from this.TRUCK DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! Maybe I'll stand on an overpass all day like a gentle love sniper (just in case Karl Rove is reading) and wave to the trucks. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Look at this awesome pic of Jim Rice and Willie Stargell, who was also awesome! Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Those train conductor caps always creeped me out as a kid. So did Milton Berle, though. Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I wonder who swung the bigger bat, Pops or Uncle Milty? Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Uncle Milty notoriously swung with heavy lumber. Pops- who knows? Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Like I said, I don't think rice was necessarily an asshole, but it's not like mrrain pulled that out of his ass. That was my only point in posting that. That there are more hits for 'jim rice nice guy' means nothing. And rice's reputation has gotten much better as years have gone on. Jay jaffe had a pretty good piece on baseball prospectus about that. For a very long time he had a bad rep. Link to post Share on other sites
jenbobblehead Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 if there are more hits for Rice is a nice guy, then statistically, wouldn't that say that more people think he's a nice guy than think he's an asshole? Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 The google search is pretty dubious from both sides. For all we know a lot of those "jim rice nice guy" hits are people saying "Jim Rice is most certainly not a nice guy." And some of the "jim rice dickface" hits could be people saying "Jim Rice is most certainly not a dickface". He had a reputation as a jerk when he played, mostly from the media but also from some of his teammates. I don't know if it means anything, but it's the rep he had. Link to post Share on other sites
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