Obama on Fiscal Responsibility

[lost highway]

Side not/digression:

 

My compliments to Speed Racer and Good Old Neon. It is a rare treat for me to read an argument where both sides appeal to my sense of reason to an almost equal degree.

[Guest Speed Racer]

My compliments to Speed Racer and Good Old Neon. It is a rare treat for me to read an argument where both sides appeal to my sense of reason to an almost equal degree.

 

Thank you, and I think we are saying a lot of the same things. I simply wish there were a little more accountability on a personal level, in addition to some very well-needed finger pointing. A lot of people have given a lot of money to (or spent a long time working for or counting on) a lot of institutions that were/are full of shit, and now we all have crap on our shoes and I wish we weren't so surprised. I really don't mean to come off as self-righteous, because I'm way too young to know my ass from my elbow. But I do know plenty about making mistakes, and making things right has a LOT more to do with owning up to your own transgressions than it does pointing out who else might have screwed up.

 

I read a lot of Washington Post chats during the day when I can (and I suppose the less I can read at work the better, right?), and I can't help but appreciate a lot of Michelle Singletary's advice on the Color of Money chat. I'm just breaking out into financial independence, and I'm really going to try my damnedest to avoid a lot of really, really attractive mistakes. Of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm cheap as hell ("I can't believe I fixed it with dental floss!" is a phrase I've used more than I'd like to admit) and hoard money.

[Analogman]

I read somewhere recently about a bank that was running out of safe deposit boxes because people are taking their retirement money and putting it in a box, instead of leaving it where it was. It seems absurd. Until you have lost a bunch of money, that is.

[mountain bed]

I read somewhere recently about a bank that was running out of safe deposit boxes because people are taking their retirement money and putting it in a box, instead of leaving it where it was. It seems absurd. Until you have lost a bunch of money, that is.

Yeah. Well, the Prez said we shouldn't be stuffing our mattresses with the hard-earned. But, I didn't drink the kool-aid, so why should I listen to him?

[Artifice]

Needs? perhaps.

 

But why not deserves?

 

what is it that you do that is so special or unique that no one else could do the job? That, in a single year, is worth the lifetime earnings of at least 30 well educated/trained people?

 

I can think of a few things, but they tend to sound more comic booky - Dr Manhatten curing cancer on a person by person basis or building renewable energy sources all around the globe. I can't think of a single thing anyone that has made that kind of money has done that warrants that kid of ridiculous income.

 

What did this guy personally do, besides sport the ultimate turkey neck, in any given day to earn the $400 million he got just as a parting gift (in addition to an already ridiculous salary)?

 

 

What specific insight that no one else could provide did his bloated presence provide on a day to day basis? Did he provide epiphanies such as "holy shit, the world is addicted to oil"? Maybe it was "drunk container ship captains are bad... mmkay?"

 

What exactly did Robert Nardelli do to deserve the $38.1 million he made in 2006 as CEO of Home Depot, in a year where his decisions drove the company to post a $54 million loss? This was pre-housing bust. Lowe's made good money that year. Tight ass reduced employees in his stores which killed customer service and drove business away, and he walked out with $40mill. Definitely all deserved.

 

There was another guy just last fall that took over one of the investment banks, when it was public knowledge it was being bought in 30 days, and he pocketed a cool $20 million for 4 weeks of work. 4 weeks. $20 mill. I'm sure his insight and efforts were absolutely miraculous in a Biblical way.

 

I'm a working professional, and I don't begrudge anyone who innovates or educates themselves and puts in a hard day from making enough to enjoy some comforts in life. But the very top of the food chain is absolutely ridiculous. No accountability, "compensation committees" comprised of cronies, profiting at the expense of millions of baby boomers who are hitting 65 only to see their 401(k)s go POOF! It's not only undeserved, it's downright criminal.

[Guest Jules]

Artifice, have you ever been CEO or managed a company?

[Winston Legthigh]

what is it that you do that is so special or unique that no one else could do the job? That, in a single year, is worth the lifetime earnings of at least 30 well educated/trained people?

Why are you asking me what I do? I don't earn $30 mil/year.

 

But if I invent a product that sells so well that I make $30 mil/year, why wouldn't I deserve that?

[Artifice]

Artifice, have you ever been CEO or managed a company?

 

My father was President of a manufacturing company for a number of years.

[Good Old Neon]

Artifice, have you ever been CEO or managed a company?

 

Why does it matter? In the cases he mentioned, the CEO

[Artifice]

Why are you asking me what I do? I don't earn $30 mil/year.

 

But if I invent a product that sells so well that I make $30 mil/year, why wouldn't I deserve that?

 

"because you can" - apply that rationale to any other moral dilemma.

 

And BTW, don't duck the rest of my post. Please justify the money those goons pulled down. I'm not talking about a six figure professional workaholic who can afford a luxury car and a vacation home. I'm talking about obscene amounts of income.

[Guest Jules]

My father was President of a manufacturing company for a number of years.

Thanks.

[Winston Legthigh]

"because you can" - apply that rationale to any other moral dilemma.

 

And BTW, don't duck the rest of my post. Please justify the money those goons pulled down. I'm not talking about a six figure professional workaholic who can afford a luxury car and a vacation home. I'm talking about obscene amounts of income.

I don't understand what you're getting at in your first sentence

 

duck the rest of your post? I was originally responding to the idea posited that NOBODY deserves $30 mil a year, which you yourself ducked... Why are you asking me to justify their salaries? So what, you named 3 people who don't deserve their salary...

 

Again, why does NOBODY deserve $30 mil/year?

[Good Old Neon]

I wonder what would happen if the rest of us non-CEO

[Artifice]

I don't understand what you're getting at in your first sentence

 

Your reasoning is they should make that much "because you can". I can kill a man, steal from him. I can build a carcinogenic smokestack on my property or play metallica at maximum volume on a 400 decibel soundsystem aimed at my neighbors window.

 

I can do all of these things too. Does that make them right? Why should that be an adequate reason for annually making 30, 40, 50, or 100 times the average working person's lifetime income?

 

duck the rest of your post? I was originally responding to the idea posited that NOBODY deserves $30 mil a year, which you yourself ducked... Why are you asking me to justify their salaries? So what, you named 3 people who don't deserve their salary...

 

Again, why does NOBODY deserve $30 mil/year?

 

I asked you numerous times in my post to prove the case in the positive, and you ignored it. I gave you a concrete example of Exxon's last CEO - please justify his $400 million. Just give me one example of someone who deserves it and why. I gave you examples and you still ducked the question.

 

And I even answered the question already. The only things I can think of are borderline miracles.

[myboyblue]

I wonder what would happen if the rest of us non-CEO

[EL the Famous]

I wonder what would happen if the rest of us non-CEO

[Guest Jules]

Why should that be an adequate reason for annually making 30, 40, 50, or 100 times the average working person's lifetime income?

30, 40, 50 or even 100 times the responsibility.

[Artifice]

...not accounting for the massive amount of grey area between both scenarios that is reality.

 

really though...seasoned CEO's running the economy = total collapse and armchair economists w/ no professional experience = 'humming merrily along'. surrrre.

 

They are depedent upon one another. That doesn't validate the cronyism and lack of accountability at the top, which is achieved via an enabling system and lots of back scratching that doesn't really exist at the lower levels unless you count the unions, and we all know how those are viewed by those who approve of the top end.

 

It's hypocritical, really.

[Artifice]

30, 40, 50 or even 100 times the responsibility.

 

Responsibility /= accountability. And everyone in a company is equally responsible for its viability.

 

Again, what do they do in a day, what is their actual labor. Be specific.

[Winston Legthigh]

Your reasoning is they should make that much "because you can". I can kill a man, steal from him. I can build a carcinogenic smokestack on my property or play metallica at maximum volume on a 400 decibel soundsystem aimed at my neighbors window.

 

I can do all of these things too. Does that make them right? Why should that be an adequate reason for annually making 30, 40, 50, or 100 times the average working person's lifetime income?

 

 

 

I asked you numerous times in my post to prove the case in the positive, and you ignored it. I gave you a concrete example of Exxon's last CEO - please justify his $400 million. Just give me one example of someone who deserves it and why. I gave you examples and you still ducked the question.

 

And I even answered the question already. The only things I can think of are borderline miracles.

 

OK, you're equating earning $30 mil/year with killing, stealing, poisoning the atmosphere, and noise pollution?

 

Right now, I make more than 90% of the rest of the world. Does that make my income immoral?

 

I didn't ignore your posts - your examples are valid - those are people who do not deserve it. We can add to that list ad infinitum. But I also gave an example - what if I invent a new key fob that earns me over $30 mil/year? I don't deserve that? Do you have a cap in mind?

[Guest Jules]

Responsibility /= accountability. And everyone in a company is equally responsible for its viability.

 

Again, what do they do in a day, what is their actual labor. Be specific.

The bolded part couldn't be more wrong. Or, I am misunderstanding.

 

I don't know what specific tasks a certain CEO does in a day. That's a silly question. However, to imply they don't carry more responsibility and pressure than anyone else in the company is even sillier.

[myboyblue]

Responsibility /= accountability. And everyone in a company is equally responsible for its viability.

 

Again, what do they do in a day, what is their actual labor. Be specific.

 

Are you serious? Everyone is equally responsible for a companies viability?

 

Although I, and most, agree that CEO pay has become significantly overblown in the last decade or two, that's just silly.

 

Generally, the higher up you move in a company, the more responsibility and pay you receive.

[bjorn_skurj]

High CEO pay is like high baseball player pay - you can't really justify it under any other logic than market forces, but market forces is the logic we operate under. Ultimately, it is between the company and its stockholders (if it's publicly held) UNLESS the government gets involved in a bailout-type scenario, in which case taxpayers are entitled, in my opinion, to a little of that compensation back, in compensation for bailing out the company in the first place. Y'know, accountability.

[MattZ]

Are you serious? Everyone is equally responsible for a companies viability?

 

Although I, and most, agree that CEO pay has become significantly overblown in the last decade or two, that's just silly.

 

Generally, the higher up you move in a company, the more responsibility and pay you receive.

 

While I agree that it's ridiculous to suggest that everyone is equally responsible for a company's viability, and I agree that CEOs have stress, and responsibility, and qualifications and training that far exceed what they are being given credit for in this thread, I think Artifice's point is that if you are compensated $30M in an year where your company needs to be bailed out by the govt, that can't really count as "more responsibility." I don't think you can have responsibility without accountability. Unless it's responsibility in theory. To have more responsibility would suggest (I think) that you pay the price if the ship goes down.

 

ETA: I also understand that these are contracts that were agreed to prior to the ship going down... I am not suggesting that the contracts should be torn up. Just trying to keep the CEO defenders around here honest. You cant go on and on about how much responsibility they have. Better to argue that ripping up a contract, or putting a cap on comp will drive this country's "best and brightest" from Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, to Deutsche Bank and UBS.

[EL the Famous]

You cant go on and on about how much responsibility they have.

 

Sure I can, but i'll also agree that there needs to be more accountability in the way of their compensation. Which, I do believe there is in a lot of companies, even if it seems like there isn't.

 

Whatever. My bigger point (not directed at Matt) is that there is no black/white absolute stance here...even though it's much easier to argue when you make it like that.