New Member Seeks a Second Chance

[dmhphoto]

I would like to apologize to the VC community for the impression that my very first post had to some. Yup, my first post was removed from the site because it appeared that I was self-promoting for a book/blog. It was not my intention to promote anything. I'm not selling anything I was just trying to share my experience as a Wilco fan. I am following the band for their 6 dates in May and I was trying to meet some fans before I started the journey. Since my first post I did meet a fan who invited me (along with 30 other fans) to a Texas BBQ before the Denton show. That's Texas hospitality for you.

Anyway VC I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Thanks to my Monitor for the kind words. So....is there anyone else out there traveling to the six shows. I think I'm most excited to go to Cains in Tulsa. It's the only GA tix I have.

[lamradio]

REPORTED.

 

Just kidding. Welcome to the board!

[dmhphoto]

REPORTED.

 

Just kidding. Welcome to the board!

 

thanks Iamrod.

Just a little hazing for the new members to get into this fansite. I'm down with that.

[Shug]

I would like to apologize to the VC community for the impression that my very first post had to some. Yup, my first post was removed from the site because it appeared that I was self-promoting for a book/blog. It was not my intention to promote anything. I'm not selling anything I was just trying to share my experience as a Wilco fan. I am following the band for their 6 dates in May and I was trying to meet some fans before I started the journey. Since my first post I did meet a fan who invited me (along with 30 other fans) to a Texas BBQ before the Denton show. That's Texas hospitality for you.

Anyway VC I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. Thanks to my Monitor for the kind words. So....is there anyone else out there traveling to the six shows. I think I'm most excited to go to Cains in Tulsa. It's the only GA tix I have.

 

I read your first post and personally I didn't find it out of line or offensive in any way. IMO, you have no need to apologize. In my experience, the moderators on here are kinda anal-rententive. I think your idea of documenting the fan experience with photos and writings is a cool one and I thought reaching out here for participants was a completely appropriate gesture, for whatever my opinion is worth (not much). Have a great time seeing all those shows, sounds like a blast. I look forward to the results of your efforts. You could PM me about it when its done instead of posting here since that apparently is frowned upon.

[Smokestack Joe]

I read your first post and I didnt take it as self-promoting. And even if it was, it didnt bother me. Honestly, I was jealous. I too am a photographer and would love to do this sort of thing. It would be life experience even if it is for a few days.

 

I will always be jealous of Zoran Orlic, wilco photographer. ha!

 

have a great time, can't wait to see the results.

[Mizzy]

Is the BBQ at Rudy's?

[dark]

No ticket here .. but I would go just for the BBQ

 

 

[The High Heat]

I had no interest in your project or those Wilco shows (because I don't live in those areas), but I didn't see anything wrong with your posts or the thread itself. You were clearly not street teamming.

 

A lot of long time members here have moved on to other sites. If this place is going to survive then we really need to quit giving shit to the newbies. Even if this site was still booming, it needs to stop. I find it to be quite juvenile and insecure to attack people just because they're new. Most of us don't really "know" each other anyway, so what's with the attacking of the newbies anyway?

 

Welcome newbie! So long as you're not hawking your goods, post away. Just be thick skinned and don't give a shit about other people's opinions about your opinions (if you're into giving opinions) and you'll do okay here.

[Guest Speed Racer]

A lot of long time members here have moved on to other sites. If this place is going to survive then we really need to quit giving shit to the newbies. Even if this site was still booming, it needs to stop. I find it to be quite juvenile and insecure to attack people just because they're new. Most of us don't really "know" each other anyway, so what's with the attacking of the newbies anyway?

 

Having not seen the original thread (or not remembering it off the top of my head), telling people to tone down self-promotion isn't a bad thing in order to preserve the community. This isn't a promotional site, it's a Wilco fan site; to keep the community alive, we need to keep it that way. That this place is slow isn't for lack of new members; notice that the posts have slowed drastically as membership has grown almost exponentially over the years. If anything, some of the old guard might argue that the influx of new members has overthrown the formerly intimate nature of the site - the days of VC barbeques seem to have long since passed.

 

Not that I'm necessarily complaining. It is what it is. If Wilco were worth discussing (and as new albums and tours approach, they will be), the board would be more active. I've been on more than one board that has gone the way of the Titanic, though their subjects of former adoration are still around and pumping out product.

 

Short answer: welcome back! This board has a long history of being cold to first-time posters promoting themselves in any way, which new members unfortunately don't know unless they promote themselves early on.

 

ETA: (Not directed at the OP, necessarily I think most of the cold-shouldering is a quesiton of intention: are you coming here to participate in our community? Or are you coming here for self-serving purposes? I don't think that's a juvenile response at all (though the posts themselves might be). Insecure? Well, to the extent that one wants to preserve this place's sense of community, then yes, and that's not bad. How people go about it might be crass, sure, but none of us are saints.

[The High Heat]

Having not seen the original thread (or not remembering it off the top of my head), telling people to tone down self-promotion isn't a bad thing in order to preserve the community. This isn't a promotional site, it's a Wilco fan site; to keep the community alive, we need to keep it that way. That this place is slow isn't for lack of new members; notice that the posts have slowed drastically as membership has grown almost exponentially over the years. If anything, some of the old guard might argue that the influx of new members has overthrown the formerly intimate nature of the site - the days of VC barbeques seem to have long since passed.

 

Not that I'm necessarily complaining. It is what it is. If Wilco were worth discussing (and as new albums and tours approach, they will be), the board would be more active. I've been on more than one board that has gone the way of the Titanic, though their subjects of former adoration are still around and pumping out product.

 

Short answer: welcome back! This board has a long history of being cold to first-time posters promoting themselves in any way, which new members unfortunately don't know unless they promote themselves early on.

 

ETA: (Not directed at the OP, necessarily I think most of the cold-shouldering is a quesiton of intention: are you coming here to participate in our community? Or are you coming here for self-serving purposes? I don't think that's a juvenile response at all (though the posts themselves might be). Insecure? Well, to the extent that one wants to preserve this place's sense of community, then yes, and that's not bad. How people go about it might be crass, sure, but none of us are saints.

If you didn't read the original thread, why comment?

 

The original mentioned a journal. The thread had several responses about meeting up before shows, and any misunderstanding about making a book about the experience could have been discussed before deleting the entire thread. Nobody involved in the thread had any complaints.

Via Chicago does have a history of jumping harshly on street teammers - and should, but it has a history on jumping on newbies just because they're new and expressing themselves. A misunderstanding of self-promotion took place in this instance, but it happens far too often that people are attacked because they just showed up. There are a lot of new members. How many stick around after getting pounded in their first few posts. There's a difference in the membership number and the actual participation number.

 

I recently joined a message board much larger than this. I didn't introduce myself, just jumped right in. Nobody welcomed me and nobody trashed me. They let me participate and they interacted with me despite of my single digit post count. It was nice to just be part of a conversation for conversation's sake. It felt very adult.

[Guest Speed Racer]

If you didn't read the original thread, why comment?

 

Because your post also addressed self-promoters in general. Since most bona fide self-promoters don't really engage in worthwhile discussion about what their intentions are, I think it's fine if the mods delete first, tell the individual why, and wait for the person to come back around if they want to. And this person did. Yay!

 

I recently joined a message board much larger than this. I didn't introduce myself, just jumped right in. Nobody welcomed me and nobody trashed me. They let me participate and they interacted with me despite of my single digit post count. It was nice to just be part of a conversation for conversation's sake. It felt very adult.

 

If I go back and read my posts on VC, everything I get razzed for is worth getting razzed for. With the exception of a very, very limited number of posts (that I could count on one hand), reactions to all of my posts have been warranted.

 

For the most part, VC is very welcoming of newbies; the only instances I can recall where people haven't been is when first posts have been inflammatory or self-promoting. I'd wager that the reason why participation and post-count have such a disparity is because of the protected forums: people need to register to access information in certain parts of the board. Some people only seek that information and have no desire to participate, and that's fine.

[Guest Jules]

I recently joined a message board much larger than this. I didn't introduce myself, just jumped right in. Nobody welcomed me and nobody trashed me. They let me participate and they interacted with me despite of my single digit post count. It was nice to just be part of a conversation for conversation's sake. It felt very adult.

sounds horrible

[Shug]

Having not seen the original thread (or not remembering it off the top of my head), telling people to tone down self-promotion isn't a bad thing in order to preserve the community. This isn't a promotional site, it's a Wilco fan site; to keep the community alive, we need to keep it that way.

 

Well, in my opinion, there wasn't any self-promotion going on. The post was about a fan going to a bunch of shows wanting to meet up with other fans and inviting them to participate in a photo journalism project documenting the Wilco fan experience. I suppose I can see how others might interpret that as self-promotion, but deleting the thread seems pretty harsh. On other boards I'm a member of, that only happens when people start calling one another names and blatantly attacking one another. I say lighten up and make the board a welcoming place to people who are totally positive and excited about Wilco.

[Guest Speed Racer]

If that was the case, then perhaps the mods made a mistake. It wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last - humans as they are, none of them are saints either, with the noted exception of kidsmoke.

 

Their actions, much more than the rest of ours, are made with the intention of preserving the community for those who want to participate in and contribute to it. A few misteps ought always to be expected, but I think they do a fine job.

[lamradio]

You guys have a talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

[gogo]

At the risk of opening myself up for attack by newbies, old-timers, and all sorts of anti-moderator types...

 

The original post was borderline, and because it came from someone brand-new to the board, I think (although I haven't talked to the mod who did it, so I can't really speak to the motivation) the intent was to nip a potential street-teamer in the bud. We're always glad to have new folks come around, and participate fully in the conversation. It is true that new folks get scared off from VC on a semi-regular basis, but I'd like to stand up for the mods here and say that more often than not, we're protective of the newbs, who might otherwise be run out of town by some of the scarier old-timers!

 

Also: the original post was blocked by a moderator, and because it was the first post in that thread, I believe that has the effect of making that entire thread invisible. Which probably wasn't the intent, because there was some other, obviously totally legit, discussion in that thread about pre-show meet-ups, etc. If I can figure out a way to restore those posts to visibility, I'll try to do so.

[Shug]

Asked out of sincere curiosity: There are two threads about Rookie Card doing shows covering Wilco that were posted by someone apparently from the band itself. Doesn't that fall under the category of self-promotion? Doesn't allowing those threads to remain seem like an inconsistent application of the rules against self-promotion?

 

For the record, I don't see anything wrong with the Rookie Card threads. Seems like something that would be of interest to Wilco fans.

[The High Heat]

sounds horrible

You are the axis point of Via Chicago.

[Guest Jules]

You are the axis point of Via Chicago.

[u2roolz]

Lauren really hit the nail on the head with intention. I mean this was a book about us, for us and was going to be eventually sold to us. Talk about finding your niche market. Edit: (Something that I wanted to write, but slipped my mind was that we have to assume that the book was going to be for sale because the user was going to 6 concerts with expenses that come with it. I/we hope that that book's sole purpose wasn't going to recoup expenses of someone going on a concert road trip. Something similar happened in the How To Fight Loneliness thread where some guy tried to justify scalping his ticket because he bought an extra ticket to upgrade where his seat was going to be. In his eyes, he saw nothing wrong with what he did.)

 

All of the other "street teamers" try to pass off their music as "alt country" and hope that Wilco fans will listen to it and either buy it or know of its existence. We've seen people use the "I forgot my password, so I needed to make a new screen name" excuse, the link to someone's album that also happens to be an Amazon.com link to actually buy the songs and album, Underground Chicago Street Rappers, etc. How many people would have bought any of that that post here? Probably not too much. I think with this book all of that changed because it is a book for us. It seems a bit ironic that people have no problem with this promotion, if it has to do with Wilco (Rookie Card included) and people don't like the bands that try to use the "we might sound like Wilco" angle to hook people in on a first post. Would people be open to a first time poster saying something like "well, I stayed in all winter and I decided to make a Wilco quilt and mittens. I would like to try and sell them for people who need it" ?

 

Imagine if I or yourself went onto an Arcade Fire message board and had your first post be about a similar book about following them all over Canada and interviewing fans. I hope that those people on the Arcade Fire message boards would question that person's intent. I mean, did they find us on Google and decide to post? Or have they been strictly readers and finally decided to post? So it does lend itself to the thought that well this person finally decided to post to give a plug to an upcoming book. What motivated that first post? Where was the ubiquitous first time post of something along the lines of "hey, what's the password for tomorrow's presale?", "hey, newbie here but I'd like to hear the new leak of the album", "first time poster, but WOW Wilco really blew me away! last night at...!"

 

Or if this were a real world situation think about this way: would you want someone approaching you for the first time at Solid Sound or any Wilco show for that matter to tell you about a book that they were going to make about Wilco fans? It would seem a bit icky, wouldn't it? Sure someone can say it the nicest way and make it sound innocent, but it is still somewhat a sales pitch or announcement about said product. In this instance, it seems like what is being said is being questioned, rather than how they said it. It's almost like those pesky kiosks at the local mall that try to sell you a phony cigarette or that damned Dead Sea hand lotion/hand salt. They approach you, instead of you actually going into a store for something. (big stretch, but it makes a bit of sense) Imagine that VC is like a mall and each store is a respective thread. We all go into our little store/thread and tend to avoid something that doesn't interest us. For me, it would be equipment gear. And we all kind of know the people in the store because we keep going in. The "street teamers" really do come off like the aggressive kiosk sellers.

 

Also, proximity seems to be a factor too. Rookie Card may not have been "offensive" to some because it was only at 1 location for one night and if you can't make it, well then no big deal. Sure, it was a first time post advertising a gig, but only open to people in the area. This book seemed available to everyone at a future point via some imaginary website where folks could eventually buy it.

 

I think that the admins/mods and all of us need to redefine "street teaming". If one of our resident fantastic concert photographers decides to sell a book, does that count too as self promotion? Or is it ok because we kind of know them through their posts? At least they have the benefit of the doubt because they post here and give insights into various subject matter. It would seem like they've posted here for so long and now want to share something with fans, rather than the other way around of immediately coming on board and trying to plug a book that has yet to happen.

 

What surprises me the most is the complacency of some folks who aren't bothered by this because it is about Wilco. And if it is not about Wilco (Chicago Underground Rapper to name someone), then people seem to get pissed off. Have outsiders found a loophole into advertising on a message board?

[gogo]

OK, so there are a couple of different things being dicussed here, including:

 

~ the appropriate level of moderation for a board like VC;

 

~ whether or not VC is welcoming to new people;

 

~ why people don't post as much as they used to;

 

~ what exactly constitutes spam/advertising/street-teaming/whatever; and

 

~ whether or not spam/advertising/street-teaming is ever acceptable, based on level of Wilco-relatedness, how long the poster has been posting here, and just general overall coolness of the project being promoted (for consistency's sake, generally the answer to this has been "no", or that the posts need to be confined to a certain area of the board, or a specific thread, etc.).

 

Believe me, all of these things are on-going topics of discussion amongst the moderators! As was hinted at above, we're all human (no, seriously!), and we disagree regularly on what the appropriate answers/solutions might be to any of these. We're always open to comments, suggestions, and (constructive) criticism. We try to be fair and consistent, and honestly, we would love to be totally hands-off. But it's pretty much a fact that more often than not, half the board will think that we're pains in the ass who get into every little thing that goes on around here, and the other half thinks that we're not nearly strict enough and need to kick a lot more ass than we do.

 

Anyway, what I'm trying to say: let the mods know if you think we've made a mistake, we're always open to reviewing decisions. Doesn't necessarily mean we'll change what we've done, but trust me, we will absolutely take your thoughts into consideration.

[kidsmoke]

Believe me, all of these things are on-going topics of discussion amongst the moderators! As was hinted at above, we're all human (no, seriously!), and we disagree regularly on what the appropriate answers/solutions might be to any of these. We're always open to comments, suggestions, and (constructive) criticism. We try to be fair and consistent, and honestly, we would love to be totally hands-off. But it's pretty much a fact that more often than not, half the board will think that we're pains in the ass who get into every little thing that goes on around here, and the other half thinks that we're not nearly strict enough and need to kick a lot more ass than we do.

 

 

So true, so true. Those of you who take issue with this decision, I do see your side of the argument. This was my action, and I have outfitted myself in a black leotard and tights to best facilitate any tarring, feathering, and riding out of town on a rail that might be deemed necessary.

Here's the deal. The original thread was, as Gogo has stated, "borderline". I have no problem with newbies and am in fact a huge promoter and welcomer of newbies. I read through the original thread when it was reported to me. I gave it a fair amount of thought, and ultimately decided that it did, in fact, seem to be a self-promotional thread designed to promote (and eventually sell) a book. Our Rules and Regulations do specifically prohibit the use of these forums for purposes of advertising things for sale, a policy I suspect our membership would appreciate more if there were greater awareness of how much spamming we mods actually deal with. But we do our job so seamlessly (yay mods, you dedicated workforce!) that much of this effort is invisible to the VC masses.

So anyway, I invisibled the thread, which does also invisible all responses to it. I then pm'd the OP to explain my decision, which resulted in a lovely and long conversation with Deb, the poster, during which conversation it became very clear to me that her intentions had not been the typical "Hey you're all going to be interested in this product I am producing for sale, since you are Wilco fans!" She suggested clarifying her initial comments to the board, and I encouraged that and welcomed her to Via Chicago.

 

She has done that, with finesse, and I consider the matter finished and I'm glad to have things clarified and very much look forward to getting to know her, another obviously smitten and impassioned Wilco fan. So, you all be on your friendly-and-civil-best-welcoming-behavior toward Deb, and please resist the urge to show all your warts at once.

 

So are we done here? (Hi Deb, are you enjoying getting to know the gang? )

 

In other news, my beloved 15-yr-old Dog Curly, The much-mourned Bella's (d. Oct. 2010) constant companion, abruptly dropped dead today, out in the yard in the afternoon sun. We're down to a one-dog household, from 3 just a couple of months ago. February is not off to a grand start.

 

Ok, tar-and-feather if you must. It won't be the first time. I'm merely pure human. (Perhaps with a smidgen of monkey remaining.)

[dark]

Kidsmoke,

Most importantly sorry for the loss of your dog

 

and welcome on board to Deb from a newbie myself

 

 

So true, so true. Those of you who take issue with this decision, I do see your side of the argument. This was my action, and I have outfitted myself in a black leotard and tights to best facilitate any tarring, feathering, and riding out of town on a rail that might be deemed necessary.

Here's the deal. The original thread was, as Gogo has stated, "borderline". I have no problem with newbies and am in fact a huge promoter and welcomer of newbies. I read through the original thread when it was reported to me. I gave it a fair amount of thought, and ultimately decided that it did, in fact, seem to be a self-promotional thread designed to promote (and eventually sell) a book. Our Rules and Regulations do specifically prohibit the use of these forums for purposes of advertising things for sale, a policy I suspect our membership would appreciate more if there were greater awareness of how much spamming we mods actually deal with. But we do our job so seamlessly (yay mods, you dedicated workforce!) that much of this effort is invisible to the VC masses.

So anyway, I invisibled the thread, which does also invisible all responses to it. I then pm'd the OP to explain my decision, which resulted in a lovely and long conversation with Deb, the poster, during which conversation it became very clear to me that her intentions had not been the typical "Hey you're all going to be interested in this product I am producing for sale, since you are Wilco fans!" She suggested clarifying her initial comments to the board, and I encouraged that and welcomed her to Via Chicago.

 

She has done that, with finesse, and I consider the matter finished and I'm glad to have things clarified and very much look forward to getting to know her, another obviously smitten and impassioned Wilco fan. So, you all be on your friendly-and-civil-best-welcoming-behavior toward Deb, and please resist the urge to show all your warts at once.

 

So are we done here? (Hi Deb, are you enjoying getting to know the gang? )

 

In other news, my beloved 15-yr-old Dog Curly, The much-mourned Bella's (d. Oct. 2010) constant companion, abruptly dropped dead today, out in the yard in the afternoon sun. We're down to a one-dog household, from 3 just a couple of months ago. February is not off to a grand start.

 

Ok, tar-and-feather if you must. It won't be the first time. I'm merely pure human. (Perhaps with a smidgen of monkey remaining.)

[tinnitus photography]

this has been an interesting thread...i was thinking there might be some parallels drawn between this situation, and how some may perceive my posts here...i am glad that people don't take my non-Wilco posts as spam, and i certainly try to limit them to topics of interest to the community (eg, i won't post any photos of the recent Robyn show ).

[bleedorange]

Very interesting thread. It can be tough and intimidating for new members. It took me forever to start actively posting.