2012 President?

[Good Old Neon]

I'm voting for cryptique

[jff]

 

jff, you stated that all politicians lie... well in that case it is impossible for Ron Paul to be a politician or your statement is false.

 

 

 

Clever, but assuming Ron Paul has never told a lie while holding political office, that only goes to prove that there is an exception to every rule.

[Doug C]

I'm voting for cryptique

Ditto. Or at least the economic platform he posted above. In that particular situation, cryptique speaks for me.

[ih8music]

Amen, cryptique.

 

And let's not forget that the 14 trillion dollar debt was almost entirely created in the past 10 years, and has it's roots back in 80's when the supply-sider lies began (remember Cheney's famous quote that "deficits don't matter" -- I wonder if he'd like to revise that statement.).

 

 

This is what happens when you have rampant, irresponsible tax cuts (yes, sadly extended by Obama), plus a couple of (now 3) completely unpaid-for wars, plus corporate bailouts and a stimulus program put in place to prevent economic collapse. The result: corporations on Wall Street are seeing record profits while everyone else suffers and our national debt soars.

[Sparky speaks]

Remember you are not going to get a vote. The new system is taking shape as you read this without any democratic input from you or me. It is being created by the same folks who are responsible for the current economic collapse at the expense of the United States...

 

[LouieB]

Hey all your youngesters, good luck with your privately funded medicare plans you will get when you are old and infirmed. It should be a ton of fun for you. Oh yea, also your Social Security that you invested in the stock market. That will be good too. Glad I am in the over 55 year group. All these right wing ideas MAY solve the deficit (on the backs of the poor, infirmed, disabled, old, etc.) so all us commies could be wrong. But then again I know you will all end up healthy multi-milionairs and won't have to care.

 

(Nice charts by the way....)

 

LouieB

[u2roolz]

I can't bring myself to vote for Ron Paul. From what I've seen of him he tends to run out on situations where he gets quite uncomfortable.

[Sparky speaks]

Hey all your youngesters, good luck with your privately funded medicare plans you will get when you are old and infirmed. It should be a ton of fun for you. Oh yea, also your Social Security that you invested in the stock market. That will be good too. Glad I am in the over 55 year group. All these right wing ideas MAY solve the deficit (on the backs of the poor, infirmed, disabled, old, etc.) so all us commies could be wrong. But then again I know you will all end up healthy multi-milionairs and won't have to care.

 

(Nice charts by the way....)

 

LouieB

 

Lou, I'm with you on the age thing, but we aren't out of the woods on this either. Our pensions have been underfunded and those that are in good shape will be targeted by local and state governments to meet their mounting financial obligations. There are already bills before Congress to confiscate 401k's. We just will never be able to retire like we thought we would.

[Doug C]

I was going to put this in it's own separate thread but since the original post of this thread was about Ron Ayn Rand Paul, I decided that it was thread-appropriate:

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/12/135171116/the-rampant-rise-of-ayn-rand-o-mania

[The High Heat]

I don't think we should be talking about this.

[LouieB]

Lou, I'm with you on the age thing, but we aren't out of the woods on this either. Our pensions have been underfunded and those that are in good shape will be targeted by local and state governments to meet their mounting financial obligations. There are already bills before Congress to confiscate 401k's. We just will never be able to retire like we thought we would.

Hey, I am not even bringing up those issues because they have been beaten to death on the Wisconsin thread. This is simply the Ryan ideas for privitizing government insurance programs and Social Security. Clearly clearly clearly there needs to be a real conversation about thsee issues (before ikol grabs this by the throat and tells us again these programs aren't sustainable....) and some long term planning needs to be done to make sure we can sustain them. But robbing the pension plans we paid into has been a problem for a couple decades and now we are up shits creek. And of course publically negotiated pension benefits with pay ins by the participants have become the new target. The only folks who's money seems to be sacred are the rich. All of us working for a living...fuck us!!

 

LouieB

[Sparky speaks]

A trillion dollars times 14.2. Sorry about the music...

 

US Debt Ceiling is $14.3 Trillion

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LUcnWsQGL9k#at=46

[West]

I'm for raising taxes drastically on the wealthy, closing loopholes on corporations (for example, those who incorporate in the Caymans to avoid U.S. taxes, and so on), raising a shit-ton more revenue, amending the Constitution to eliminate "corporate personhood" and guarantee Constitutional rights only to human beings (not corporations), and (among other things) repairing the nation's infrastructure, which is crumbling at an alarming rate, which would actually create hundreds of thousands of jobs, if not millions, not to mention the positive ripple effects it would have across the rest of the economy.

 

Essentially, a New New Deal. Let's bring back the Works Progress Administration. Let's give more than a spit-shine to this country -- update its infrastructure from mid-20th century to 21st century with room to grow into the 22nd. Let's re-regulate some industries that obviously can't behave themselves. Fuck the "unfettered free market" -- that's the naïve fantasy that landed us in this mess in the first place.

 

More than anything, let's narrow income disparity. Yes, that means wealth distribution, but instead of from the bottom up (which has been what's happening for decades, but especially since the Reagan administration), this time from the top down.

 

Does that smack of socialism? You fuckin' betcha. It also happens to be what this country needs.

 

You may have some points, but through socialism you take away individual choice and liberty which is something the United States is founded on. Oh, and the free market "didn't land us in this place". It was the fault of bankers who made terrible decisions.

[cryptique]

You may have some points, but through socialism you take away individual choice and liberty which is something the United States is founded on. Oh, and the free market "didn't land us in this place". It was the fault of bankers who made terrible decisions.

You're confusing socialism with Soviet-style communism.

 

Also, you're concentrating solely on the calamitous events of 2008. The (relatively) unfettered free market, which gained considerable momentum during Reagan's time, led incrementally to the 2008 meltdown, though its onset was significantly expedited by the policies of the George W. Bush administration.

[bjorn_skurj]

You may have some points, but through socialism you take away individual choice and liberty which is something the United States is founded on. Oh, and the free market "didn't land us in this place". It was the fault of bankers who made terrible decisions.

Terrible decisions for whom? Not themselves - they got bailed out. I have yet to see a banker ask me for a buck on the street. The oligarchy used the "free market" to F the American people out of billions and billions, and got away with it, because the alternative of them not getting the bailout would be even worse. They haven't even given us the courtesy of telling us we can eat cake.

 

Paging Mme. Guillotine!

[West]

You're confusing socialism with Soviet-style communism.

 

Also, you're concentrating solely on the calamitous events of 2008. The (relatively) unfettered free market, which gained considerable momentum during Reagan's time, led incrementally to the 2008 meltdown, though its onset was significantly expedited by the policies of the George W. Bush administration.

 

I don't think so; you promote a socialist doctrine, yet what if I as an individual do not want to give my money for whatever social program you offer? Today it is forcibly taken from me; if I refuse the IRS comes after me or whatever government agency. The fact is no matter how noble a socialist cause, without the consent of an individual, is an infringement of his freedom which the United States (used to be) is all about.

[Doug C]

I don't think so; you promote a socialist doctrine, yet what if I as an individual do not want to give my money for whatever social program you offer? Today it is forcibly taken from me; if I refuse the IRS comes after me or whatever government agency. The fact is no matter how noble a socialist cause, without the consent of an individual, is an infringement of his freedom which the United States (used to be) is all about.

I am not cryptique but if I may be so bold as to respond (is that a complete sentence?).

 

According to your quoted response, you should be able to give consent to all taxes. You must define our current tax system and all of our previous tax systems, including that which we were founded on as 'socialist' because citizens have never been able to give direct consent to any taxes.

[West]

I am not cryptique but if I may be so bold as to respond (is that a complete sentence?).

 

According to your quoted response, you should be able to give consent to all taxes. You must define our current tax system and all of our previous tax systems, including that which we were founded on as 'socialist' because citizens have never been able to give direct consent to any taxes.

 

Being our government is that of a republic and not a true democracy you could say that my representative is allowing me to be taxed, yet when we were founded it was not meant for the federal government to be so big, nor were people as bold as to tax as much as we are now taxed. I cannot think of any "socialist" thing about the beginning of our country or our first taxes, so maybe you can point it out.

[uncool2pillow]

I'm voting for cryptique

Even after I remind of of this gem from the Wilco sells out to VW thread?

 

Oh' date=' Jesus Ass-Fucking Christ on a Skateboard, is this bullshit still carrying on? I can't leave you kids for two minutes, swear to cod.

 

jnickerson (et al), you need to get down off your fucking high horse. This "I am the arbiter of all that is right and true in the world of Art" just makes you look like the biggest knob on the planet. The world hasn't changed because a Wilco song is being played in a commercial. No one's being hurt by it. Their music doesn't suddenly suck because of it. And, contrary to what you obviously think, their ability to carry on as artists has not been compromised.

 

At the end of the day, artists gotta eat. Right? You do realize that, don't you? Sure you do, because you're a "gifted artist" (your words) who hasn't sold his soul to the commercial mainstream. Well, goody goody two-shoes for you. I'm sure your lofty principles help you sleep better at night. But don't imagine for a minute that they entitle you to sit in judgment over others, especially a group of guys who sweat to put out great music and play great shows for the likes of you.

 

I just get so disgusted when people like you decide to take up the mantle of True Art. Who elected you? Who appointed you? More importantly, why the fuck should we care what you think? Art is what it is. Sometimes it's private, sometimes it's public, sometimes it's transcendent, sometimes it's utilitarian, sometimes it's commercial. Why do you get to draw the lines that decide what it is and what it isn't? ...how it can be used, and how it can't? ...who should profit from it, and how much?

 

The act of selling a painting is an act of commerce. If you sell it to a museum or corporation for a large sum of money, isn't that "selling out," by your definition? If not, why is it different from selling a 30-second snippet to Volkswagen?

 

I seriously think you need to take a look around and reconsider your worldview, if this kind of thing gets you this upset. Take a step back. Ask yourself if it really bothers you, or if you just let it bother you because it seems somehow cooler or more artistically principled to do so.

 

That's all I got. I didn't even bother to read the last couple of pages of this shite, so hopefully I haven't rehashed any previous posts.[/quote']

[austrya]

Being our government is that of a republic and not a true democracy you could say that my representative is allowing me to be taxed, yet when we were founded it was not meant for the federal government to be so big, nor were people as bold as to tax as much as we are now taxed. I cannot think of any "socialist" thing about the beginning of our country or our first taxes, so maybe you can point it out.

 

When my town was founded we didn't have a water treatment plant, everyone had a well. Damn "the man" for being so bold as to tax people to cover the cost of the municipal water/sewer system and the salary to pay the people who work for the "Department of Public Works." We were founded with a "Village Council" and I see no need to expand government any more than that. The next thing you know, it will be illegal to dump my used motor oil into the storm drain. Stupid EPA. Who the hell do they think they are?

[ikol]

I know I'm not getting Social Security or Medicare and am perfectly fine with it. I just wish the government would make it official instead of acting like everything can continue as it is. You can raise taxes on the rich all you want, and it's not going to make a dent in that problem.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I know I'm not getting Social Security or Medicare and am perfectly fine with it. I just wish the government would make it official instead of acting like everything can continue as it is. You can raise taxes on the rich all you want, and it's not going to make a dent in that problem.

 

Yep, I'm with you 100%. I don't expect anything from what I'm paying into the pot now; I know that it's funding my parents' generation's retirement, but whatever. I just wish they wouldn't pretend I'm getting anything out of it.

[cryptique]

I don't think so; you promote a socialist doctrine, yet what if I as an individual do not want to give my money for whatever social program you offer? Today it is forcibly taken from me; if I refuse the IRS comes after me or whatever government agency. The fact is no matter how noble a socialist cause, without the consent of an individual, is an infringement of his freedom which the United States (used to be) is all about.

You have an odd concept of "freedom."

 

Ask the Danes if they feel like their freedom is impinged in any way. They pay astronomical taxes, but they also get free healthcare, free education including university, a stunning array of well-funded social welfare programs, ample funds for infrastructure ... and all of these taxpayer-funded benefits allow them a degree of freedom that Americans will never know.

 

Denmark is basically a socialist country in many ways -- certainly in terms of its welfare state -- yet it's also consistently at or near the top of the list of countries whose residents are happiest. Businesses thrive despite this socialist nightmare, and the markets are as free as virtually any in the world. According to Wikipedia, those America-hating commies at the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation rated Denmark's economy as the "11th most free" in the world, yet 80% of workers belong to unions. Income taxes are the highest in the world, yet the standard of living is also among the world's highest, and wealth disparity is among the lowest.

 

What Denmark is doing, we could be doing too ... except that no one could ever sell that kind of success to the American public, who prefer their uniquely "American" brand of fucked-up, failed economics, corrupt politics, and greed-based corporate supremacy, despite it being against their best interests. Our system is pulling us over a cliff, but as a nation we're more interested in wrapping ourselves in the Stars and Stripes and shouting about how America is the Greatest Country In The World™ (or might have once been, anyway) than in facing up to the mistakes we've made and finding real solutions. That stubbornness and willful ignorance of our systemic problems will propel us over that cliff, sooner rather than later, and in the resulting chaos we'll see how much people truly cherish things like "freedom." In times of crisis, true freedom is one of the first casualties.

[Guest Jules]

I know I'm not getting Social Security or Medicare and am perfectly fine with it. I just wish the government would make it official instead of acting like everything can continue as it is. You can raise taxes on the rich all you want, and it's not going to make a dent in that problem.

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[Good Old Neon]

You have an odd concept of "freedom."

 

Ask the Danes if they feel like their freedom is impinged in any way. They pay astronomical taxes, but they also get free healthcare, free education including university, a stunning array of well-funded social welfare programs, ample funds for infrastructure ... and all of these taxpayer-funded benefits allow them a degree of freedom that Americans will never know.

 

Denmark is basically a socialist country in many ways -- certainly in terms of its welfare state -- yet it's also consistently at or near the top of the list of countries whose residents are happiest. Businesses thrive despite this socialist nightmare, and the markets are as free as virtually any in the world. According to Wikipedia, those America-hating commies at the Wall Street Journal and the Heritage Foundation rated Denmark's economy as the "11th most free" in the world, yet 80% of workers belong to unions. Income taxes are the highest in the world, yet the standard of living is also among the world's highest, and wealth disparity is among the lowest.

 

What Denmark is doing, we could be doing too ... except that no one could ever sell that kind of success to the American public, who prefer their uniquely "American" brand of fucked-up, failed economics, corrupt politics, and greed-based corporate supremacy, despite it being against their best interests. Our system is pulling us over a cliff, but as a nation we're more interested in wrapping ourselves in the Stars and Stripes and shouting about how America is the Greatest Country In The World™ (or might have once been, anyway) than in facing up to the mistakes we've made and finding real solutions. That stubbornness and willful ignorance of our systemic problems will propel us over that cliff, sooner rather than later, and in the resulting chaos we'll see how much people truly cherish things like "freedom." In times of crisis, true freedom is one of the first casualties.

 

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