JackStrawfromOttawa Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Wilco a jam band? No way. Wilco is more like a genre fusion band given to their eclectic range of styles. To the untrained ear Wilco does seem to dabble occasionally in the jammy spaces, but as for wanton improvisation, nope. Their's is a highly structured sound with very little of that spontaneity, i.e. the creating of fresh melodies over the continuously repeating cycle of chord changes in a tune. It has been said that the best improvised music sounds composed, and that the best composed music sounds improvised. That's Wilco. And there in lies their misconception as a jam band. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thingfishp Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 So we're in agreement that Wilco is not a jam band. I love improvisation, but, in general jam bands don't do it for me. I've tried to like Phish, but it just doesn't move me. My brother has plaid sax with them on several occassions and we saw them at the Beacon in NYC, but other than loving the horns I couldn't get it. And they are none the worse off for lack of my support. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
calvino Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 So we're in agreement that Wilco is not a jam band. I love improvisation, but, in general jam bands don't do it for me. I've tried to like Phish, but it just doesn't move me. My brother has plaid sax with them on several occassions and we saw them at the Beacon in NYC, but other than loving the horns I couldn't get it. And they are none the worse off for lack of my support. Was your brother part of the Giant Country Horns? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Wilco is definitely NOT a jam band, but in what may be a singular opinion, I do wish sometimes that the individual members did get to improvise a bit more. The occasional solo by any and all of the band members, particularly the keyboard players or Glenn would be welcome. Nels does seem to have more time to be featured. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 There are so many different ways people are defining what constitutes a jam band, from length of the songs, the lack of structure in parts of the music, the variety of setlists night to night, and even the behavior of the fan community. But I don't think these definitions quite nail the essence of jam band music. To me, jam bands are based on the idea of collective improvisation where each member is "soloing" at the same time in a spontaneous way, both trying to make an individual statement and to also make that musical statement fit into the single musical statement being made by the band collectively. David Crosby used to call the Grateful Dead "electric Dixieland" because it was apparently common in Dixieland to have collective improv like this. But I think the collective improv ethos of the Dead and The Allmans came more from bebop and free jazz. And they combined that collective improv with all sorts of American roots musics. If a jam band does not have an encylopedic knowledge of some kind of traditional music, it usually falls flat, IMO. It takes a lot of skill, practice, knowledge, creativity and a willingness to take musical risks to make good collective improv rock. Most of what are called jam bands are to varying degrees basing their music on this ehtos but, IMO, don't do it very well. I think that's why so many people dislike jam bands and find them boring. To me, its boring to hear one dude solo while the rest of the band just waits it out. Wilco and My Morning Jacket don't do this, if there is a long solo, like in Impossible Germany, the rest of the band are doing something interesting, laying down the foundation, building the crescendo, etc. A big part of good collective improv rock is that there are crescendos and there are changes in loudness and tempo and mood and stuff like that. A good collective improv jam song takes the listener on a journey. IMO, there are not that many bands that could do this really well. The Allmans did it with more precision and less spontaneity, the Dead did it by the seat of their pants and were best at it in 1968 and 1969 when they were practicing ALOT. Another point is that really good strong collective improv rock has to have good songwriting and structure to juxtapose against the free form jamming. A good example is the Jerry Garcia Band taking an old R&B song like Don't Let Go, playing a straight version of the first two verses and choruses before taking it into free jazz outer space noise rock before bringing it all back to earth to finish the last verse and chorus. When its done well, its extremely satisfying to a particular kind of listener. When its done without the requisite skill, it can be painfully atrocious. And a lot of jam bands just don't have good songwriting, meaning lyrics, melody, harmony and other elements of song structure. Virtuosity without good songwriting is boring to lots of people and too many jam bands fall into this category. So both Wilco and My Morning Jacket have a lot of the qualities that constitute good jam band music, but both bands don't really make the long free form jams a big enough part of their music that I would consider either of them a jam band. I can clearly see why people like me, who are fans of the Dead and The Allmans, find a lot to like in the ensemble rock of Wilco and MMJ. They really listen to one another and even if its completely rehearsed and planned out, they all try to make both an individual and collective musical statement. That, combined with their knowledge and true love of roots music, is a huge part of what makes them great live bands, IMO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Free form music and jamming are not the same thing. A jam takes place within the structure of a particular piece of music. The Dead used to have a section of their shows which was free form (a Dead head will have to remind me what thing was called...) but the rest of the time they would jam based on the melody of a particular song. Most jam bands do this. Most of the jam bands have a pretty clear structure to their jams, such as who takes solos when and in some cases the solos can be pretty similar each time. Many rock musicians don't have the musical chops to get too far off the initial structure and many bands have set solos that are repeated performance after performance. If there is any similarity to jam bands and Wilco, this is it. Even when Nels does solo (such as Impossible Germany) he plays approximately the same thing each time. So do the rest of the band when they get a bit of room. I doubt that Jeff would tolerate anyone going off script for too long. I know that arrangements change over time, but I am betting that is a conscious decision based on Jeff or inpur from a band member, but not any freelancing. Free music is very different. A group of musicans may simplly pick up their intruments with a vague idea of who is doing what and play off each other for the duration. In some cases they may have a general score, but in others they may not have even discussed what is going to happen. Free jazz is infuriating to those not aclimated to it or those not expecting it. To many people even improvising is intolerable. Some bands may sound like they are improvising but are really just playing what they always play. Dixieland jazz (a fairly pejorative term to serious musicians) or traditional (trad) jazz is collectively improvised, but almost never gives any room for a band member to solo. Swing jazz, at least the small group variety, did allow solos. Bebop on the other hand was a musical form which insisted on a high degree of improvisation as did all subsiquent types of modern jazz. Louis Armstrongs Hot Five and Seven records were revolutionary in a way most people today can't even fathom. Just the small amount of individual soloing that occurs on those records stands in stark contrast to Louis' work with the King Oliver band he played in just a couple years before. Today it is nearly impossible to figure out the difference, but the difference was striking enough to make these records important historical documents. A good song always helps but it is certainly not necessary to build a jam around. An excellent jazz ensemble can build an interesting improvisational experience around some fairly ordinary or even purile piece of music. I would not call "My Favorite Things" a great song, (emjoyable enough on its own terms perhaps), but John Coltrane certainly knew what to do with it. He was less sucessful with ChimChimCheree. Likewise MIles Davis did okay with "Someday My Prince Will Come" a fairly dreadful piece of Disney songwriting, but it works in his and his bands hands. Many memorable improvisational numbers are either well known standards or bare outlines of tunes that a musican may concoct for improvisation. Perhaps the most famous of all vehicles for improvisation in jazz at least is "I've Got Rhythm" an old Gershwin chestnut. There are literally dozens of swing and bebop jams structured around the chord changes of this tune. And the blues is a basic jamming vehicle as well. it is not the actual tune that makes a blues jam, but instead the creativity of the arranger and the soloists. For those of us who don't care, I doubt any Phish, or Dave Mathews song can be good enough to keep us listening to those bands for whatever the individual musicans are doing. Likewise it was the sheer genius of jazz vocalists like Ella Fitzgerald or Billie Holiday who could take the most mundane and in some cases stupid songs and turn them into high art. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I guess it all comes down to definitions of words, and that can fall into the realm of opinion, but to me the unstructured or free form music the Dead played in the middle of songs like Dark Star or Bird Song or Playing In The Band or in the Drums/Space part of the show is a kind of jamming. I guess you are using the term jamming differently than I am. I think free form music is a kind of jamming. Both the Allmans and Dead did what you are talking about with pieces of music like Mountain Jam (based on Donovan's song There Is A Mountain) and the Dead's Spanish Jam which wasn't based on any particular song, just a vaguely Spanish sounding theme. Garcia Saunders Band did it, too, with instrumental versions of My Funny Valentine. For me, the point is the Dead and Allmans did have the chops and knowledge and all that to pull this kind of thing off, but most of what are called jam bands don't, IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 We agree totally about Dark Star (yea that's it) and those kinds of jams. That is certainly free (I guess) if also sometimes kind of lame (in my opinion only). All those jams were a pretty good excuse for the fans to let the drugs kick in and dance by themselves. To this day most folks can't tolerate free music. Put on any Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, or later Coltrane, Albert Ayler or just about anything by the Art Ensemble of Chicago at a party and you are likely to find yourself alone. The Allmans were pretty skilled musicians. The Dead less so. Even the Dead admitted they weren't always the greatest of musicians. And the Donovan song is a good instance of a pretty lame song making an okay (again depending on your opinion) jam. Garcia Saunders picked up My Funny Valentine as a jam from both Miles and Chet Baker (and other "cool" school musicians) who had already beaten that into a pulp years before. The strength of MFV is it's difficulty. I dig Garcia, but originality was not his strong point. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I ask this because I have heard them played twice lately on the Jam On station on Sirius XM. I admit I do love to hear the intricate instrumentals they create, but a jam band? When I hear jam band, I think the likes of Grateful Dead, Widespread Panic, Phish, Dave Matthews Band, The Band, Allman Brothers. I hesitate to put Wilco in that same category.When did the Band become a jam band? If they are a jam band then I guess Wilco is also. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 When did the Band become a jam band? If they are a jam band then I guess Wilco is also. LouieB It's kind of funny. The Band has been cited by the Dead, Clapton and others as a huge influence on them. They influenced a lot of musicians to jam LESS and work on songwriting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IRememberDBoon Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 keep in mind songs like Tennesee Jed and Friend of the Devil and so forth with the Dead and Billy Breathes and punch you in the eye from phish. structured ones that run about the same time usually i think Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 keep them in mind for what? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rareair Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 future reference? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thingfishp Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Was your brother part of the Giant Country Horns? No, Dave Grippo was the sax player in that unit. My brother Chris Peterman, who has played with Grippo off and on for a long time on the Burlington, VT scene, was in the Cosmic Country Horns, as was Grippo. Hey Jeff, you looking for some horns for the summer shows? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Wilco is not a jam band. I have seen Nels play in a jam band: Banyan. With Stephen Perkins of Jane's Addiction, a trumpet player, and rotating cast of bass players including Mike Watt. Really stunning to see, especially in the small clubs they play in Southern California. I think it is just mostly off the cuff improv, but occasionally they jam out on tunes like Hendrix's Machine Gun, sans lyrics. Nels channeling Hendrix is like...seeing Hendrix in the 21st century. Wish Jane's would break up again so Banyan could get back together. Also, some jam bands are good, if you're into that kind of thing. Most are terrible. There are some similarities between Wilco and the Grateful Dead, in that they are both eclectic American bands, with roots in folk. Also similarities between the communities/fans, taping of shows, etc. Greatest similarity is just the depth of soul of both bands, and that is essentially what I think attracts Dead fans to Wilco. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skian Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Nope.They have jammed a little in the past.Casnio Queen ->Outtsite -> Monday etc (end of show rockers).Some good jams in the 90's & 00's. But still not full on.My favorite How to Fight Loneliness -> Not For The Season. nice jam.But not a jam band.It might be nice if they mixed it up a bit more.Jam some! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IRememberDBoon Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 i was just saying that GD and Phish both have straight up songwriter songs. Brought to you by Robert Hunter and John Barlow and Tom Marshall Ripple is a great example. Covered by the band Wilco Wilco is for fans of Bob Dylan and Phish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JackStrawfromOttawa Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Bob just might sing it like this. "♪♫..Somebody is out there beating the dead horse... ♪♫" Breaking news:This just in, Wilco declared 'NOT' a jam band by fans. Details and film at 11. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's kind of funny. The Band has been cited by the Dead, Clapton and others as a huge influence on them. They influenced a lot of musicians to jam LESS and work on songwriting.One would think. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky speaks Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Are the Beatles a jam band? No. So, Wilco, the closest thing to being the American Beatles music wise, are not a jam band. Case closed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shug Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Not about whether Wilco is a jam band, but about part of what makes good jam bands (or any kind of band) good, IMO: From the liner notes to the Grateful Dead album of live Dylan covers Postcards From The Hanging: " Folk music is where it all starts and in many ways ends. If you don't have that foundation or if you're not knowledgeable about it and you don't know how to control that and you don't feel historically tied to it, then what you're doing is not going to be as strong as it could be." Bob Dylan, as interviewed by Mikal Gilmore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jw harding Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Not about whether Wilco is a jam band, but about part of what makes good jam bands (or any kind of band) good, IMO: From the liner notes to the Grateful Dead album of live Dylan covers Postcards From The Hanging: " Folk music is where it all starts and in many ways ends. If you don't have that foundation or if you're not knowledgeable about it and you don't know how to control that and you don't feel historically tied to it, then what you're doing is not going to be as strong as it could be." Bob Dylan, as interviewed by Mikal Gilmore This. But would add that most jambands today are more influenced by Zappa, prog, jazz, fusion, etc., than by folk or the Dead. That doesn't make them suck, just makes most people think they suck. Just a different foundation that most people can't or aren't interested in relating to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DewieCox Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Are the Beatles a jam band. No. So, Wilco, the closest thing to being the American Beatles music wise, are not a jam band. Case closed. Really? I hear some similarities here and there and a few songs that sound like they could be Beatles' tunes but I've never thought that Wilco was ever close enough to the Beatles to be the American Beatles, Dale Murphy articles aside. I'd say Wilco are right on the fringe of being a jam band, but they're 98% not. Them actually being considered a jam band would stem more from the non music side of things and what appears on their albums and how they play their tunes live takes precedent over that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
choo-choo-charlie Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Why are we still talking about this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Why are we still talking about this? Because there are too many damn jam band fans on this board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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