Presidential Race (Respector Edition)

[lost highway]

"I'll chop a squid and mash a pickle, and watch you drink it."

[lost highway]

And that misattributed lip-read quote is in reality more substantive than Romney's interest in saying almost nothing, most of the time:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/15/mitt-romney-vague-speculatron-sept-14_n_1885620.html

[Sparky speaks]

[Sparky speaks]

[IRememberDBoon]

Why is a class label so important to you? Isn't it all relative to where you live anyway? 200-250K probably is "middle class" in some areas of the country, and is probably "filthy rich" in others. It's all a matter of perspective, no?

 

 

 

No. Maybe the Upper West Side but thats about it. I mean 250K a year?? MIDDLE CLASS! Good lord.

 

I think Obama had it pretty good.

 

Hows that??

[ih8music]

No. Maybe the Upper West Side but thats about it. I mean 250K a year?? MIDDLE CLASS! Good lord.

 

And even that is absurd. I can think of one household in my friends/family circle that hits this mark. Everyone else does not (including me), and I live in a very high cost of living area. Frankly, most of my friends are one-adult households. Some are still trying to support children, some are not. As for my family, most are two-income households, but none come near this level...maybe half, at best.

 

There are many areas of the country (SF Bay Area & Orange County, CA to name two) where a household 200-250K/yr wouldn't be enough to make you "rich" by most people's standards. It's enough to afford a nice (but not extravagant) house in a nice (but not extravagant) neighborhood, a couple of cars, being able to put your kids into private school if you want/need to, able to go on the occasional vacation & put money away for retirement. Yes, a very nice & comfortable lifestyle by any standard -- what I would consider the goal of a middle class lifestyle -- but certainly not living the high life of "champagne wishes and caviar dreams" or anything like that.

 

I think it all comes down to how you define middle class. If you define it as only 'not poor, but still struggling to get by' then sure I can see your point. But if you define it as that plus 'comfortable, but not wealthy' on the higher end then there are a lot of areas in the country where 250K/yr still isn't enough to make you "rich."

 

So yeah, I'm with Jules on this one.

[ih8music]

On the perspective issue, of course Romney doesn't understand what it is to be poor.

 

Which is why it was absurd for Ann Romney to try to paint the picture of them starting out poor and living in (his/her?) parents' basement. While I don't claim that she was lying, I suspect Mitt had quite a trust fund at the ready... and certainly his father was a very wealthy man himself. They may have chosen to live a spartan lifestyle for a few months/years, but it certainly wasn't a situation forced upon them.

 

Niether does Obama or any other president for that matter.

 

Correct - I don't think Obama was ever truly poor, but everything I've read is that he was raised in a very modest middle class upbringing. Short of the couple of years in which they lived an arguably privileged life in Indonesia, all of their years in Hawaii were spent in apartments and modest single family homes.

 

It's pretty much irrelevant.

 

You can argue that, but some people want to know that the president can relate to their own life experience -- that he understands what it means to be middle class. Between these two, that's clearly Obama.

[IRememberDBoon]

You guys were talking about 250 thousand dollars a year? Right? For 10 years or more? I lived in the heart of Georgetown and know whats what but I dont understand on any level what you people are talking about.

[Winston Legthigh]

The dividing line between middle and upper class should be the ability to buy a new Bentley, with cash. That's about $200k, right there.

[Doug C]

Mitt Romney's first boyhood home. 5,500 square feet. This picture was taken a bit before it was razed a almost 2 year's ago.

 

President Obama's first boyhood home:

[bleedorange]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

[Winston Legthigh]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

 

Not sure. I have basically nothing in common with either candidate, and have no need to feel like one is more like me than the other.

 

I'm still waiting for a party that promotes social liberty, fiscal responsibility, and less resource consumption. Vote all the current bastards out.

[LouieB]

Not sure. I have basically nothing in common with either candidate, and have no need to feel like one is more like me than the other.

 

I'm still waiting for a party that promotes social liberty, fiscal responsibility, and less resource consumption. Vote all the current bastards out.

You are going to have a long wait.

 

LouieB

[ih8music]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

 

Well, the tangible political reason for this discussion is the contrast between Obama's proposed tax increase on households making over $250K/yr and the Romney/Ryan desire to cut the top tax rate.

 

But yeah, this particular discussion is silly since both candidates define middle class as households making under $250K/yr.

 

And as has been belabored here already, depending on where you live and what your life situation is that level can sound reasonable or absolutely ridiculous.

[Doug C]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

I have no class envy of either the President or Mitt Romney. I have no class hatred, either. It only matters in the context of how the candidates try to present themselves. For Mrs. Romney, Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan (his boyhood home was pretty sweet, too) to attempt to relate to the struggling working folk by saying that their lives were ever remotely economically arduous, is laughable. Why not say the truth? "I was very fortunate to grow up in a family where financial worries never existed. We never worried about where our next meal would come from, we never worried about losing our home, affording college. We never had to choose between going to the doctor or making the rent. I was lucky to have, and have, such a priveleged life. But I understand that many of my fellow citizens deal with those type of stressors every day and that those stresses impact life negatively in so many ways. That is why I want to do . These laws and policies will allow more folks to focus on enjoying life rather than simply surviving life because ". Hell, if Romney said that, and had specific ideas that I believed in, I'd probably vote for him. Ah, no I wouldn't because he'd still believe that God came to some teen less than 200 years ago and told him about Kolob.

[Guest Jules]

For Mrs. Romney, Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan (his boyhood home was pretty sweet, too) to attempt to relate to the struggling working folk by saying that their lives were ever remotely economically arduous, is laughable. Why not say the truth?

 

Valid. And my point is that Obama isn't much different, rendering the whole thing moot.

[Doug C]

Valid. And my point is that Obama isn't much different, rendering the whole thing moot.

No because President Obama at least had some struggles, granted not "poor as Job's turkey" (channeled my mom, there), that are relatable. Plus, he doesn't say ridiculousness like "we lived in a basement". Well, to be fair, Mr. Romney had struggles too, such as being raised in a cult.

[KevinG]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

 

It is not class hatred, though it seems to have devolved into that. I originally brought it up to show how out of touch Mitt is. It shows that Mitt does not understand economic situation of the average American (whose median income is around 50K).

 

Regardless if PBO lived a life of privilege on par with Mitt (which IMHO is kinda laughable) is moot point and kinda a silly argument to make (my candidate grew up poorer than yours). But as president you need an understanding of all Americans and how your policies will affect them. to me Mitt's comment showed a simple lack of understanding of what it is to be middle class, arguably the most important economic group in the US. Now you personally have to make the decision if this will affect who you will vote for.

[Winston Legthigh]

It is not class hatred, though it seems to have devolved into that. I originally brought it up to show how out of touch Mitt is. It shows that Mitt does not understand economic situation of the average American (whose median income is around 50K).

 

Regardless if PBO lived a life of privilege on par with Mitt (which IMHO is kinda laughable) is moot point and kinda a silly argument to make (my candidate grew up poorer than yours). But as president you need an understanding of all Americans and how your policies will affect them. to me Mitt's comment showed a simple lack of understanding of what it is to be middle class, arguably the most important economic group in the US. Now you personally have to make the decision if this will affect who you will vote for.

 

I still don't understand how saying "$250k and less is middle class" means Romney is out of touch. As others have pointed out, for tax purposes, that's Obama's demarkation line as well.

 

Please explain.

[KevinG]

I still don't understand how saying "$250k and less is middle class" means Romney is out of touch. As others have pointed out, for tax purposes, that's Obama's demarkation line as well.

 

Please explain.

 

I read this article from the Atlantic http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/09/mitt-romneys-definition-of-the-middle-class-is-pretty-weird-in-1-graph/262402/ kinda sums it up for me.

 

It argues in essence your point, with the qualification "and less." And it can be seen as a harmless statement. To even consider a level of 200K as middle class to me shows a level of not understanding the majority of Americans. He could have said it much better, he could have skirted around without using a class distinction and still making his point. It is the same as his 10K bet with Rick Perry, he sees money differently then the majority of Americans.

 

But the last line in the article makes an interesting point PBO has never referred to the 250K as middle class.

 

Yes I guess Jules was right when he commented "words" back awhile ago. Yes it is words, all of it really. We are all going to take what "the other guy" says and twist it to form the narrative we want, To show how our guy is awesome and the other is stupid.

[Winston Legthigh]

OK then, how much money/income qualifies one to be upper class?

[ih8music]

It's like that old line about obscenity. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

[IRememberDBoon]

So this election has become nothing more than class envy? Class hatred? Why does any of this matter?

 

someone is on here saying 250K is middle class and President Obama had ist great as a child. Just trying to set the record straight. The divide between rich and poor and black and white in this country is bigger than its ever been and that is a FACT

 

I have no class envy of either the President or Mitt Romney. I have no class hatred, either. It only matters in the context of how the candidates try to present themselves. For Mrs. Romney, Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan (his boyhood home was pretty sweet, too) to attempt to relate to the struggling working folk by saying that their lives were ever remotely economically arduous, is laughable. Why not say the truth? "I was very fortunate to grow up in a family where financial worries never existed. We never worried about where our next meal would come from, we never worried about losing our home, affording college. We never had to choose between going to the doctor or making the rent. I was lucky to have, and have, such a priveleged life. But I understand that many of my fellow citizens deal with those type of stressors every day and that those stresses impact life negatively in so many ways. That is why I want to do . These laws and policies will allow more folks to focus on enjoying life rather than simply surviving life because ". Hell, if Romney said that, and had specific ideas that I believed in, I'd probably vote for him. Ah, no I wouldn't because he'd still believe that God came to some teen less than 200 years ago and told him about Kolob.

 

much better stated than i can. thanks

[IRememberDBoon]

Jules I want to cuss you out but it doesnt fly in here so I'll just say I dont like you.

[IRememberDBoon]

Just one idea. Try reading. The Presidents books or Marinniss' for example which is a straightforward bio thats hardly pro obama.

 

When he was in NYC going to columbia for instance he didnt have a pot to piss in and had no parents and noone to turn to.

 

I can imagne his summers in a small room reading compared to The Romneys and The Bushes down the shore or on the cape or Vineyard or maybe Aspen or Vail with the entire family and dog and a nice warm fire.

 

Give it a rest with the Obama had a good childhood BS. If you never know your father you didnt have a great childhood. Just keep lying to yourself but leave us out of it.