Politics 2014

[KevinG]

Is there really any elaboration required? Millions of people who knowingly broke the law by entering the country illegally -- and broke still more laws by using stolen identities and Social Security numbers 

 

I wonder if you saw or read the speech at all?  I doubt many Americans did because it was not shown on any major news network.  

 

But anyway, where it is true many people broke the law by entering this country illegally.  Though I suspect that there are millions of them using stolen SSNs.  I would like to see some information on that.  The real problem is the undocumented workers who are paid under the table, they not only get paid far less and have poor working conditions, they do not pay any type of taxes.  The President's action would fix this.    

 

 

 

Yes, it's a kick in the teeth, especially for all the people who have come to the country legally.

 

This is in fact where I tend to agree with you, but our immigration system is bloated, outdated and inefficient.  It is incredibly hard for anyone to become a citizen of the United States, or to even get a work visa.  And rounding up the millions of undocumented workers is not feasible or realistic.  And from the President's speech last night, which actually lays out which immigrants are affected by this plan:

 

 

 

Now here is the thing. We expect people who live in this country to play by the rules. We expect those who cut the line will not be unfairly rewarded. So we’re going to offer the following deal: If you’ve with been in America more than five years. If you have children who are American citizens or illegal residents. If you register, pass a criminal background check and you’re willing to pay your fair share of taxes, you’ll be able to apply to stay in this country temporarily without fear of deportation. You can come out of the shadows and get right with the law. That’s what this deal is.

Now let’s be clear about what it isn’t. This deal does not apply to anyone who has come to this country recently. It does not apply to anyone who might come to America illegally in the future. It does not grant citizenship or the right to stay here permanently, or offer the same benefits that citizens receive. Only Congress can do that. All we’re saying is we’re not going to deport you.

   

These people are not automatically citizens, they aren't gonna start collecting welfare and be a burden on our system.  It is giving them an opportunity to stop breaking the law.  

 

Would I love for every person that comes to work in this country to do so through the proper channels, of course I would.  However after decades of a broken immigration system we have millions of people here, it just is not possible to round them all up and send them back.  

 

 

The fact that the president waited to make the proclamation until after the midterm elections in his second term shows just how unpopular it is among the members of his own party.

 

And this is the most laughable statement.  A bi-partisan bill (which was nearly identical to the President's plan) was passed in the US Senate (with 68 votes).  The GOP controlled House simply refused to bring the bill up for a vote or work with it.  The President told congress he would use his executive action if Congress failed to act.  Of course he waited until after the mid-terms, but not because this is unpopular with his party.  It is because now with the GOP controlling both houses there is no chance of any type of immigration legislation that will pass.  But as the President said, all of his executive action will go away if congress does the right thing and gives him a bill.  Simple as that.  

 

So I encourage before everyone goes off half cocked, take a look at the President's speech.  Read it, listen to it, watch it.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/transcript-obamas-immigration-speech/2014/11/20/14ba8042-7117-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html

 

I think you will find it is a more common sense middle of the road approach, not this anarchy and chaos that the right will have you believe.  

[LouieB]

Why doesn't Boehner bring the immigration reform law that passed the Senate to the House and then none of this would be an issue. Oh yea, right, it might actually pass. 

 

LouieB

[Mr. Heartbreak]

 

I think you will find it is a more common sense middle of the road approach.  

 

That is exactly what it is.

 

 

Mass amnesty would be unfair. Mass deportation would be both impossible and contrary to our character. What I’m describing is accountability—a commonsense, middle ground approach: If you meet the criteria, you can come out of the shadows and get right with the law. If you’re a criminal, you’ll be deported. If you plan to enter the U.S. illegally, your chances of getting caught and sent back just went up.

 

My wife came here as a legal immigrant, and it's both difficult and expensive. The application fee for Adjustment of Status, a.k.a. a "green card," is over $1,000. So is the application fee for becoming a U.S. citizen. These illegal aliens are getting neither. They are going to have to register with the U.S. government, undergo a criminal background check, pay taxes, and go to the back of the line if they are ever even allowed to apply at a later date for Adjustment of Status. Not exactly an easy thing for folks who may very well be making minimum wage or even less. In fact, it's a safe bet that most of these folks couldn't afford those fees no matter what.

[Atticus]

I'm curious as to how a criminal background check is going to be implemented for someone who entered the country illegally, probably has no documentation of his/her true identity (or any way of demonstrating that he or she has been consistently using that identity since being in the country) and has no US identification. Are we going to fingerprint every applicant and run those through all our databases? (I'm honestly asking, this isn't a usual political thread passive-aggressive-I-already-know-the-answer-to-my-sarcastic-question post)

[ih8music]

It is my understanding that the "biometric" information which will be required during the application process will include fingerprinting.

[KevinG]

I'm curious as to how a criminal background check is going to be implemented for someone who entered the country illegally, probably has no documentation of his/her true identity (or any way of demonstrating that he or she has been consistently using that identity since being in the country) and has no US identification. Are we going to fingerprint every applicant and run those through all our databases? (I'm honestly asking, this isn't a usual political thread passive-aggressive-I-already-know-the-answer-to-my-sarcastic-question post)

 

I good honest question.  It is one to ponder.  I would imagine it would be some sort of finger printing, which would try to look at all databases around the world and verify background and criminal history.  But the specifics of the plan have not been laid out, so all we have is speculation.  

 

But a couple of things to consider the number of immigrants with a criminal history is likely a very small percentage.  But I would also imagine those that have a criminal history will not bother to go through background check, register etc and thus have a greater likelihood of being deported. Also once you go through this process (and pass) if you commit a criminal act, you will be deported.  The net effect will be a greater number of immigrants who are positive to our society rather than a negative.   

 

Any sensible person who looks at his plan as it was laid out can see that his plan is very complex and still will be be very difficult, but the way GOP talks you would think that by waving a magic pen, Obama, is allowing millions of criminal drug dealers into our country, giving them welfare checks and food stamps so that Hillary can win in 2016.   

 

For those who disagree with the plan, what is the alternative?  I have yet to see any type of plan.  If the GOP thinks the President is so wrong in what he is doing, legislate another bill.  Do something.  The President has given fair warning that he was going to do this.  This should not be a surprise.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Yep, biometrics includes fingerprinting...something legal immigrants are subject to as well, along with a photo. If the person has been fingerprinted and it's documented elsewhere (e.g., CODIS), I presume it will match up.

 

Doubt many criminals will register for this, of course. Why risk deportation and/or prosecution?

[Atticus]

Well, it's the honest thing to do. I'm sure there won't be any problems.

[KevinG]

Well, it's the honest thing to do. I'm sure there won't be any problems.

Of course there will be problems, this his people we are talking about. If everyone followed rules and did what we are supposed to we would need things like this. But of course you have to see if the good out weighs the bad. In this case it does.

[twoshedsjackson]

In other news, Texas Republicans have once again been tampering with textbooks instead of reading them:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/11/21/365686593/texas-hits-the-books

[lost highway]

I still find it strange that some people think of citizenship as some kind of currency that they earned, but others are trying to shortcut and steal. Apparently being born into a wealthy nation as a winner of the cosmic lottery entitles you to look with fear and disdain at anyone who aspires towards similar opportunities.

[twoshedsjackson]

As compelling as the immigration issue may be, I find this far more troubling:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/04/republicans_and_the_midterms_global_warming_deniers_could_have_their_dreams.html

[lost highway]

As compelling as the immigration issue may be, I find this far more troubling:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/04/republicans_and_the_midterms_global_warming_deniers_could_have_their_dreams.html

 

Yeah, that could prove worse than any pipeline.

[KevinG]

As compelling as the immigration issue may be, I find this far more troubling:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/11/04/republicans_and_the_midterms_global_warming_deniers_could_have_their_dreams.html

 

The current crop of GOP are so anti-science it is scary.  But, in truth it is not they are anti-science, they are pro business.  

[bleedorange]

In other news, Texas Republicans have once again been tampering with textbooks instead of reading them:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/11/21/365686593/texas-hits-the-books

It actually could have been a lot worse. As hard as that may be to believe. It's a constant battle.

 

http://tfninsider.org/2014/11/21/the-textbook-vote-is-in-heres-what-we-accomplished/

[twoshedsjackson]

The current crop of GOP are so anti-science it is scary. But, in truth it is not they are anti-science, they are pro business.

Yep. Their willful ignorance is bought and paid for, but the effect is much the same. Catastrophic.

[twoshedsjackson]

It actually could have been a lot worse. As hard as that may be to believe. It's a constant battle.

 

http://tfninsider.org/2014/11/21/the-textbook-vote-is-in-heres-what-we-accomplished/

I know. I've been following this nonsense for a long time. it's been the subject of at least one rage-inducing documentary. I know there are a few teachers here on VC. I'd love to get their perspective.

[Atticus]

Ferguson grand jury decision made.

[uncool2pillow]

I got a fucking robo call today about Keystone. That shit was supposed to stop after the election.

[lost highway]

Ferguson grand jury decision made.

And it's not good. The system is looking a little broken here.

[Cam Jones]

"a little broken"? really? 

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Glad you guys were able to reach a reasoned conclusion that "the system is looking a little broken" after reading all the evidence the grand jury reviewed.

 

Oh wait...

[Hixter]

Glad you guys were able to reach a reasoned conclusion that "the system is looking a little broken" after reading all the evidence the grand jury reviewed.

 

Oh wait...

Exactly. The system isn't broken just because a court decision goes against your hopes and expectations. 

[KevinG]

Exactly. The system isn't broken just because a court decision goes against your hopes and expectations. 

 

I have hope in the system that the Grand Jury worked to the letter of the law, looked at the evidence presented and returned the correct decision. 

 

However I found this stat a little troubling.  Out of 162,350 cases that were brought to a grand jury a total of 11 did not return an indictment.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/11/24/the-single-chart-that-shows-that-grand-juries-indict-99-99-percent-of-the-time/

 

It would have seemed to be that the evidence must have been overwhelming that the police officer acted in accordance of the law.

 

But I agree the system is broken, but probably not in the way you see it.  The system is broken that lead the death of a young man.  Our society's attitudes towards guns, race, poverty, the role of police, etc. all contributed.  The grand jury just made a decision based upon what it saw in the constructs of these issues.  

 

Also Americans are really apathetic.  When I tweet that reassures viewers that they won't miss Dancing with the Stars because of the announcement just shows where our priorities are.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/ferguson-dancing-with-the-stars_n_6215992.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular.  And when no major network carried a Presidential speech (for the second time on a row BTW), it is also sad.  This is truly where the system is broken.  

 

We will care about this for another day or two, we will yell scream and argue, then something else will come up.  Maybe Alan Thicke will caught as a serial flasher or something.  Or someone else is gonna get shot by someone else, which is more likely.  

[twoshedsjackson]

Glad you guys were able to reach a reasoned conclusion that "the system is looking a little broken" after reading all the evidence the grand jury reviewed.

 

Oh wait...

You're right. The system isn't broken. It's functioning exactly as it was designed to.

 

If Brown had been, say, a group of gun fondling rednecks on a ranch pointing automatic weapons at federal agents, he'd have been sent on his way. No hard feelings.

Unfortunately for him, he stole some cigars and walked down a street unarmed. That's just begging to have a magazine emptied into him, am I right?