Walking the Walk

[kidsmoke]

Amid the nationwide protests at airports and elsewhere across the country (and world), a personal note: Jeff and Sue Tweedy spent part of the past couple of days joining in the protests at O'Hare. Yesterday they were verbally attacked by a small group of haters who suggested they would be happy to kill them. It was completely unprovoked; Jeff and Sue were simply passing by this group. At their comments, Jeff protested that "You don't even know me!" but this made no difference to the group. Thankfully Jeff had the good sense to involve the police, and passengers in the area confirmed that the verbal attack had been absolutely unprovoked. It ended peaceably but certainly could have turned ugly. The attackers were made to apologize, by police, but you can be pretty sure no minds were changed.

 

Here's the thing....these people had no idea who Jeff and Sue were...they were out in the world not as "public figures" but as ordinary, everyday citizens exercising their right to object to Trump's ban. It might have been any one of us, in other words, and I hope we'd have handled it with as much restraint and sense as they managed to show in those shocked moments.

 

What is my point? I'm not really sure, other than that I am proud of them both for being willing to "walk the walk", and I hope all of you out there will be careful. These are such incendiary times. I don't intend to fold up into a tight little box and hide in a corner and I hope you don't either. Be careful out there. But be proud Americans too, with all that implies.

[lost highway]

Whoa. Proud of the Tweedy's for stepping out and representing, and not getting swept up in a cloud of ignorant hatred. Public death threats to strangers in passing...... these are strange days.

[mountain bed]

A couple of quick things: first off, I could not be more proud of Jeff and Sue for exercising their constitutional right to make their voice heard. Many of us have done so as well, and it's so wonderful to know they're willing to get out there. They're not in a bubble. They know there's strength in all of us getting together. I feel compelled to mention Sue in particular - if anyone ever had a reason to stay home and maybe just make a Facebook comment...but NO. This is a really tough woman. Her husband is a blessed man.

 

Secondly, I cannot stress how important it is in the court of public opinion to be peaceful with your public gatherings, now more than ever. We can prevail, but the minute TV shows us tearing up public property and getting violent with each other Mom & Pop 6 pack will turn on us. History shows us this is true. Stay strong, stay vigilant, stay active and most of all stay cool. Peace go with you, Brothers and Sisters.

[kidsmoke]

A couple of quick things: first off, I could not be more proud of Jeff and Sue for exercising their constitutional right to make their voice heard. Many of us have done so as well, and it's so wonderful to know they're willing to get out there. They're not in a bubble. They know there's strength in all of us getting together. I feel compelled to mention Sue in particular - if anyone ever had a reason to stay home and maybe just make a Facebook comment...but NO. This is a really tough woman. Her husband is a blessed man.

 

Secondly, I cannot stress how important it is in the court of public opinion to be peaceful with your public gatherings, now more than ever. We can prevail, but the minute TV shows us tearing up public property and getting violent with each other Mom & Pop 6 pack will turn on us. History shows us this is true. Stay strong, stay vigilant, stay active and most of all stay cool. Peace go with you, Brothers and Sisters.

 

Thanks Mt. Bed. That was beautiful and that's excellent advice. Steady as we go.

[worldrecordplayer]

There was a lot of media attention and public condemnation of the violence in DC on inauguration day. A friend and her sister who were there to witness some of that believes the violence was perpetrated by pro-Trumpers, the Bikers for Trump crowd, for propaganda purposed. I can't verify that, but my friend is reliable. So if possible, keep those mobile device videos going at all times, and stay safe.

 

 

[kidsmoke]

Good advice. The video helps.

[mountain bed]

There was a lot of media attention and public condemnation of the violence in DC on inauguration day. A friend and her sister who were there to witness some of that believes the violence was perpetrated by pro-Trumpers, the Bikers for Trump crowd, for propaganda purposed. I can't verify that, but my friend is reliable. So if possible, keep those mobile device videos going at all times, and stay safe.

 

 

Absolutely. Agent provocateurs are a real and present danger. And we know how Nixon and Hoover used those to discredit the Left - which resulted in a landslide re-election for the most corrupt President in our lifetimes. Until now. We have to nip this in the bud as quickly as possible. If we stay cool one would have to believe that any conservative that sticks with POTUS for any length of time faces repercussions in '18.

[Robby]

Do you remember

    Your president Nixon?

    The bills you have to pay?

    Or even yesterday?

 

Young Americans - David Bowie

 

I don't think many Americans who were, are, or will be disturbed by Emperor Trump and his antics, will remember by 2018, be they conservative or liberal. I think we instead just become more numb.

[Albert Tatlock]

As an outsider I have had a question at the back of my mind for a while. Surely it is the minority of Trump supporters who are actual bigots. There may be a percentage who are dumb enough to be attracted to a 'celebrity' rather than listen/think about actual policies. I have no feel for the percentage of pro-lifers who would vote based upon that issue alone. But, what percentage do you (right minded Americans) think voted for him as a last role of the dice after being ignored and living in difficult times for years. Why wasn't more done during 8 years under Obama? 8 years of a black president and still the police were gunning down innocent black people with impunity? Where did it all go wrong such that the 'yes we can' attitude achieved so little for those who may have turned to Trump out of desperation for any kind of change (in what they definitely see as the Swamp whoever is in power) that might possibly improve their lives, without considering all they might bring upon the country with that choice. With so much energy being expended now, was the opportunity lost to work as hard for some good for them in the previous decade? Were Democratic politicians then too complacent that nice Mr Obama was in power, all was well with their lilberal world and they did not have an ear for those who were struggling during the 'good times'?

There was a similar reaction by perhaps a similar segment of society with Brexit here of course.

 

I would be interested to hear your views on this proposition.

 

Note - There is no implied criticism of anyone who is resisting now.

[maxspr1]

With absolutely no disrespect intended, I think that the idea that what got Trump elected was the disaffected American blue collar worker who was worried about his job and financial future and his voice being heard...is dishonest at best and delusional at worst. News outlets and pundits have been trying hard to convince themselves and everyone else that was what happened. But after the events of this week and some of the thousands of ugly and truly shitty things said and done by opposing citizens and politicians during Obama's time in office and especially during the 2016 election, you will never convince me that bigotry wasn't/isn't the main thing driving Trump's supporters. I lived in the South for 30+ years and I heard and witnessed more racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia in the last eight years than ever before, getting progressively worse and progressively more public in the last year. I'm not saying every Trump supporter or Republican politician is a card-carrying KKK member or swastika-wearing neo-Nazi. What I am saying is that I've felt marginalized and betrayed by my government, and I've been out of work and felt down and paralyzed and afraid...I've been scared about my future and my safety and terrified by world events...but I never once thought that what would make my life better would ever involve being okay with the Klan and the Nazis. If my champion had parties where white power advocates and Holocaust deniers were not turned away at the door, I don't care how down and out I was, I'd find a new champion. 

[lost highway]

As an outsider I have had a question at the back of my mind for a while. Surely it is the minority of Trump supporters who are actual bigots. There may be a percentage who are dumb enough to be attracted to a 'celebrity' rather than listen/think about actual policies. I have no feel for the percentage of pro-lifers who would vote based upon that issue alone. But, what percentage do you (right minded Americans) think voted for him as a last role of the dice after being ignored and living in difficult times for years. Why wasn't more done during 8 years under Obama? 8 years of a black president and still the police were gunning down innocent black people with impunity? Where did it all go wrong such that the 'yes we can' attitude achieved so little for those who may have turned to Trump out of desperation for any kind of change (in what they definitely see as the Swamp whoever is in power) that might possibly improve their lives, without considering all they might bring upon the country with that choice. With so much energy being expended now, was the opportunity lost to work as hard for some good for them in the previous decade? Were Democratic politicians then too complacent that nice Mr Obama was in power, all was well with their lilberal world and they did not have an ear for those who were struggling during the 'good times'?

There was a similar reaction by perhaps a similar segment of society with Brexit here of course.

 

I would be interested to hear your views on this proposition.

 

Note - There is no implied criticism of anyone who is resisting now.

 

Yes! Bring this line of questioning because it's the only way the left is going to conjure a winner who can actually help people. It's easy to forget that what you're questioning here is very important, while the 70 year old toddler throws an executive fit.

 

I think someone smart could write a book to answer these questions. I'll try a few things:

 

One- complacence. A certain cross section of liberals actually are coastal elites, they care about people but aren't always connected to their realities. Or to spin the lens around, maybe some are like me- middle class (a dying breed), in an economically healthy part of the country, securely employed, and having a hard time keeping the experience of a West Virginian in their mind when they think of the state of a nation.

 

Two- Republican obstructionism. Obama was stuck with a powerfully resistant legislative body which may have settled both parties into a habit of "reaching across the aisle" being kind of a joke. They might have actually shared some common ground in terms of quality of life for cross sections of our citizenry, but I think the last few years could be described as "entrenched". While Obama didn't initiate the trench war, he might have gotten far too used to it which slowed down the hope and change.

 

Three- Most of the hardest hit sectors of our economy were struggling with being obsolete. Manufacturing has gone overseas, and domestically has become increasingly automated. Coal is slowly and steadily becoming a less important resource. "Drill baby drill" sounded so Republican, but beyond preserving some beautiful stretches of country, Obama was pretty on board with that and we got to confront an oil industry struggling with overabundance. Most solutions to these problems are not in the wheelhouse of a "moderate" government. You can see why some thought they'd hand the reigns to a mercantilist who promised to centrally manage our economy, while not quite understanding that is an approach that doesn't gel with their rattle snake flag that proclaims "don't tread on me".

[Shug]

With absolutely no disrespect intended, I think that the idea that what got Trump elected was the disaffected American blue collar worker who was worried about his job and financial future and his voice being heard...is dishonest at best and delusional at worst. News outlets and pundits have been trying hard to convince themselves and everyone else that was what happened. But after the events of this week and some of the thousands of ugly and truly shitty things said and done by opposing citizens and politicians during Obama's time in office and especially during the 2016 election, you will never convince me that bigotry wasn't/isn't the main thing driving Trump's supporters. I lived in the South for 30+ years and I heard and witnessed more racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia in the last eight years than ever before, getting progressively worse and progressively more public in the last year. I'm not saying every Trump supporter or Republican politician is a card-carrying KKK member or swastika-wearing neo-Nazi. What I am saying is that I've felt marginalized and betrayed by my government, and I've been out of work and felt down and paralyzed and afraid...I've been scared about my future and my safety and terrified by world events...but I never once thought that what would make my life better would ever involve being okay with the Klan and the Nazis. If my champion had parties where white power advocates and Holocaust deniers were not turned away at the door, I don't care how down and out I was, I'd find a new champion. 

I'm so glad someone else is expressing these ideas.  I am with you.  What has been revealed is just how racist, sexist and xenophobic a huge swath of the US populace really is.  All through my life it has been unacceptable, in the culture that I have lived in, to publicly express these values.  Little did I know so many held them but were just keeping their mouths shut (as a native Californian, I got a BIG shock when I lived in Memphis, TN for a few years in the 2000s and I heard the racist shit white people would say to my face thinking I would agree with them just because I'm white)

 

I also think the things that got Trump elected were mainstream America's obsession with celebrity and fame, giving credibility to people who don't do anything to deserve it,  years of poor education that does not teach critical thinking, combined with an increasingly greedy and out-of-control corporate culture basically raping the middle and working class in America for the past 30 years.  When people are afraid of not having a decent living even though they work hard and they have little to no critical thinking skills, they are extremely vulnerable to having their emotions and fears manipulated, triggering them into completely illogical beliefs, like thinking that Trump would actually do anything for the middle class or working class or the poor other than continue to exploit them and in fact do everything possible to make it easier for the rich to screw over everybody else in America as anyone with a modicum of intelligence and not blinded by emotion could easily see if they paid attention.

 

And these Trump supportes had a perfectly viable option with a proven track record who would be a champion for the working and middle class, the poor, veterans, the elderly, students, etc in Bernie Sanders, but they didn't vote for him because they are brainwashed against the word "socialism" and he was not socially and religiously conservative enough for them. 

 

Many in my family are Catholic and I know they voted against Hillary because of her stance on abortion, which to them is the most important issue in politics above all others.  One even admitted that he considers Trump a barbarian completely unfit to be President, but still better than Hillary because of her stance on abortion, which is a shocking and horrendous position to take, in my view.

[Winston Legthigh]

 

Many in my family are Catholic and I know they voted against Hillary because of her stance on abortion, which to them is the most important issue in politics above all others.  

My family is Catholic but acknowledges that they can't force their beliefs on others. I don't "believe in Abortions" either. My wife and I are both against it, and would never get one. That's how we approach it. If you're against abortions, then don't get one. If you're against homosexual marriages, then don't marry a member of the same sex. Make your own decision, but don't force your ethics on others. 

[Shug]

My family is Catholic but acknowledges that they can't force their beliefs on others. I don't "believe in Abortions" either. My wife and I are both against it, and would never get one. That's how we approach it. If you're against abortions, then don't get one. If you're against homosexual marriages, then don't marry a member of the same sex. Make your own decision, but don't force your ethics on others. 

It would be a tremendous thing if my family and all Catholics thought as you do (same goes for my fundamentalist evangelical Christian mother who told me a few days ago that I am going to hell and was mad at me for forcing her to say to my face what she believes in her heart).  

 

I commend you on your attitude.  I respect your position tremendously.  Thanks for saying it!

[remphish1]

Yes Winston perfect! Couldn't agree more!

[Winston Legthigh]

meh. helps that I'm an atheist.

[Shug]

An athiest Catholic?  I didn't know any existed!

 

Seriously, if the major religions just removed the exclusivity clause from their dogmas, there would be so much more peace and so much less divisiveness in the world and in communities and even in families.

 

sorry this is going so far off topic, but I'm very grateful for the sensible discussion, thanks so much, folks!

[Winston Legthigh]

An athiest Catholic?  I didn't know any existed!

 

Seriously, if the major religions just removed the exclusivity clause from their dogmas, there would be so much more peace and so much less divisiveness in the world and in communities and even in families.

 

sorry this is going so far off topic, but I'm very grateful for the sensible discussion, thanks so much, folks!

God told me it was OK not to believe in him, then he vanished. *poof!*

[Shug]

I got excited there for a moment that there was actually a practicing, believe in God, go to church, take communion, use Christian doctrine as a guiding life principle Catholic who was foregoing the exclusivity clause.  Now that would be something to get excited about!

[Winston Legthigh]

I got excited there for a moment that there was actually a practicing, believe in God, go to church, take communion, use Christian doctrine as a guiding life principle Catholic who was foregoing the exclusivity clause.  Now that would be something to get excited about!

I used to be all that AND still voted for abortion rights, as did all my family, as did all of my Catholic school friends.

[calvino]

My aunt - who is a nun - doesn't even like Pence. Didn't ask who she voted for - but I am pretty certain it wasn't for Trump/Pence.

 

There are definitely one issue Catholics, where any pro-life candidate will suffice,  but no one in my family has been like that.

 

Perhaps it's a 'big city' view ---my family are(were) all Chicago south-side Polish and Irish Catholics who came here in the early 1900's.

 

I don't believe in anything anymore (deity wise), though - except three chords and the truth, of course.

[Passenger Sid]

There's a LOT Catholics who vote Democrat. I think it's close to 50-50.

 

They justify voting for a Pro-Choice candidate by saying they believe the Democrats respect life post-birth more than Republicans. Pope Francis, nor priests, tell parishioners who to vote for.

[Winston Legthigh]

They justify voting for a Pro-Choice candidate by saying they believe the Democrats respect life post-birth more than Republicans. 

 

Nope. We just respect the Establishment Clause. We also respect that it's a (very difficult) decision to be made between a woman and her doctor. 

 

We also don't want to force women into a situation where they might get an unsafe illegal abortion. 

 

Pope Francis, nor priests, tell parishioners who to vote for.

 

Except when a church bulletin tells you that voting Democrat is a mortal sin.

[Shug]

According to this poll, for what its worth, most evangelicals went Trump, but so did many Catholics.  I'm not surprised at the evangelical numbers, they seem to me to be far more rigid and homogenous in their beliefs and opinions than Catholics.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/

[Passenger Sid]

Nope. We just respect the Establishment Clause. We also respect that it's a (very difficult) decision to be made between a woman and her doctor. 

 

We also don't want to force women into a situation where they might get an unsafe illegal abortion. 

 

 

Except when a church bulletin tells you that voting Democrat is a mortal sin.

 

Yep. Catholics can vote for whatever candidate they want for whatever reason they want. The Church doesn't tell them how to vote. That San Diego flier isn't supported by the Church. Of course, voting Democrat is NOT a mortal sin. Silly.