Bush always doing what's right

[EL the Famous]

1. I wasn't making any personal attacks on you prior to reposting your Legion of Doom post.

 

2. The miscarriage thing wasn't a joke - it was my slightly tasteless way of lampooning the whole "those fetus cells have a right to live", fundie right-winger bullshit argument. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't even directed at you if that wasn't ever your stance to begin with. If it was, well, tough tittie.

 

3. Calling me an asshole repeatedly isn't really the "high road" you seem to enjoy taking, and futher gets in the way of your "holier than thou" stance you crave. I don't recall calling you any names... (...outside of saying you're a provider of Comedy Gold. Which you are.)

 

4. That Pope Mobile was some funny a$$ shit, dood.

 

Absolutely, Mr. H. Dude, please ignore, respond, whatever to the following...

 

You took a stance that anybody who thinks that said cells that were originally created w/ the intent of creating a new life first be given the opportunity to go on and do so and then be used for research should adoption not be viable as selfish (outweighing the few or whatever)...so you called me selfish. Without directly saying it, you also seem to think that couples who go to ART to create a family are doing something wrong (overpopulated earth, couples should adopt)...so you're saying I did something wrong. If that's not the case, say so...i'll take time out from being holier than you and apologize. If it is, you have to understand i'm going to respond.

 

I took offense to the whole miscarriage comment as it wasn't just slightly tasteless, it was an unneccesary, crass way to make a point and hit very close to home. Maybe I am saying that "those fetus cells have a right to live" first and foremost in this discussion...that's what they originally intended for, yeah? I'm no fundie right-winger by any means, personal experience trumps the 'party line' in this case.

 

I said your misacarriage post was an asshole thing to do and called you an ass once. I called myself an asshole the same amount of times. Whoopee. I've never claimed to be 'holier than thou', regardless of how you or anybody else interprets how I view myself. If my not backing down on what I believe in makes me so, well then...guilty as charged. If by calling somebody on the carpet when they post something I don't think is right makes me so, well then...guilty as charged.

 

All that said, my confusion on the whole veto was cleared up very early in this thread and i've stated i'm completely against said veto. This isn't just another 'us vs. them' 'right-winger vs. left-winger' thing though, when somebody is

[Dude]

Absolutely, Mr. H. Dude, please ignore, respond, whatever to the following...

 

You took a stance that anybody who thinks that said cells that were originally created w/ the intent of creating a new life first be given the opportunity to go on and do so and then be used for research should adoption not be viable as selfish (outweighing the few or whatever)...so you called me selfish. Without directly saying it, you also seem to think that couples who go to ART to create a family are doing something wrong (overpopulated earth, couples should adopt)...so you're saying I did something wrong. If that's not the case, say so...i'll take time out from being holier than you and apologize. If it is, you have to understand i'm going to respond.

 

No, I don't think couples who do that are selfish at all, I think DECISION MAKERS who pass or veto legislation allowing or preventing researchers from getting their hands on a very limited line of stem cells in the interest of creating a few new babies - and doing so mostly on "moral" grounds - is beyond selfish and socially irresponsible. My comments about adoption and overpopulation are me taking a wider utilitarian view on the whole issue, and being concerned with the "greater good" or the well-being of the greatest number of people. I may be an asshole for saying this, but the potential benefits of stem cells resulting in a cure to a wide variety of conditions to me far outweigh the needs and desires of a very limited number of couples who can't conceive on their own and also can't adopt.

 

I don't expect couples to give up their individual needs to raise a family based on whatever embryos are available to them, but the reality is that there are FAR MORE embryos available than will ever be adopted by couples, and Bush's stance on this whole thing is that he'd rather those embryos sit frozen indefinitely than be used for research. And my apologies, but that disgusts me.

 

I took offense to the whole miscarriage comment as it wasn't just slightly tasteless, it was an unneccesary, crass way to make a point and hit very close to home. Maybe I am saying that "those fetus cells have a right to live" first and foremost in this discussion...that's what they originally intended for, yeah? I'm no fundie right-winger by any means, personal experience trumps the 'party line' in this case.

 

Originally intended for by whom? Some deity who may or may not exist? The couple who signed the waiver allowing the embryo to be used for research? What?

 

I said your misacarriage post was an asshole thing to do and called you an ass once. I called myself an asshole the same amount of times. Whoopee. I've never claimed to be 'holier than thou', regardless of how you or anybody else interprets how I view myself. If my not backing down on what I believe in makes me so, well then...guilty as charged. If by calling somebody on the carpet when they post something I don't think is right makes me so, well then...guilty as charged.

 

Well, whether that's your intention or not, that is how you come across.

 

All that said, my confusion on the whole veto was cleared up very early in this thread and i've stated i'm completely against said veto. This isn't just another 'us vs. them' 'right-winger vs. left-winger' thing though, when somebody is

[Gobias Industries]

The only I'm noting is the fact that Bush has finally lost his (veto) virginity.

[EL the Famous]

Originally intended for by whom? Some deity who may or may not exist? The couple who signed the waiver allowing the embryo to be used for research? What?

 

Again, if you ascribe some level of sacredness to those cells that is beyond what they are - which is nothing more and nothing less than a collection of cells, then the miscarriage comment applies. Neither God (assuming one exists) nor nature regards embryos as having any special property to them. If nature willingly allows millions of embryos to go to waste through natural miscarriages, why are we obligated to ensure every single embryo we create has the chance to live?

 

These cells were originally intended to create a child via implanting them into a woman...that's what IVF is. There's nothing moral or religious about their original purpose...why they came about. If a couple made a specific request they be used for science, fine. It dissapoints me, but that's their right. You also know that, as the 'parent' or 'owner' of said cell mass...you can personally ask it be destroyed? Your thoughts on that? If abortion is okay, is this okay too? Women's right to choose and it's just a cell mass, right?

 

All I can say is, when the time comes that your future wife becomes pregnant and, forbid, she has a miscarriage...word of advice: don't try and comfort her by telling her she lost 'nothing more and nothing less than a collection of cells'.

 

If nature willingly allows millions of embryos to go to waste through natural miscarriages, why are we obligated to ensure every single embryo we create has the chance to live? My answer...why not?! By that rationale, if nature willingly allows millions of grown people to die through natural causes, why are we obligated to ensure every single one of them has the chance to live? Same answer...why not?! Especially since, as you said, there are FAR MORE embryos available than will ever be adopted by couples...we can and should do both.

 

We're on the same page as far as how diplorable this veto is. Maybe, however, as someone who saw our 'cluster of cells' (literally saw them go into my wife in a little flash of light on the x-ray) grow into two beautiful babies...I guess I have found some new level of sacredness to them. Like I said, it's a perspective you don't have...that's not me being holier than thou, that's just fact. You can be detached and very political about the whole thing, I guess I can't.

[WilcoFan]

Perhaps my biggest objection to stem cell research is that it is one more step to dehumanizing human life. I think it would be a shame for this research to ultimately be the argument to further legitimize the deterministic human engineering as illustrated in "Brave New World."

 

I guess the only reason Bush is against stem cell research is that the world is already abundant with working class thugs and the poor who will fight the wars for the filthy rich.

[bjorn_skurj]

I wish somebody would genetically engineer me a reporter who will do what I fucking tell them to.

[Dude]

I wish somebody would genetically engineer me a reporter who will do what I fucking tell them to.

 

As long as she looks like this I'm sure you'd be pretty happy:

 

[WITHIK]

"how hard is it to pick up a couple of bottles of Basil Hayden's before the package store closes?"

[kidsmoke]

Dude, El F, I've let your dialogue play out because I think this is a useful discussion, and both of you have put a very human face on why this is such a hot-button issue throughout the country. I appreciate the efforts you have made at restraint & fair play, more than you know. It's hard when an issue is so personal, as this one is on so many levels. El Kevin, I too have suffered a miscarriage, so I understand your point poignantly when you say that telling a woman that all she's lost is a "clump of cells" will not go over well with her.

 

You've both deepened this discussion and that's a good thing. I ask now that, having exhaustively discussed your positions and opinions with each other, you let the dialogue between the two of you drop, or take it to pm's. It's been pretty heated at times, and it's never particularly useful to have accusations and epithets starting to be tossed about.

 

Again, thanks for your efforts to be civil (and that goes for everyone who has shown restraint in this thread) and to have an intelligent discussion. I just think the two of you should take a breath and a step back from each other. Thanks in advance.

 

Reading this thread has served to crystalize and solidify my own thoughts on this issue, as I'm sure it has for others reading it. I already knew basically what I thought, but this discussion has helped me to really examine why I think as I do. It's good that we as a community can talk to each other on this level, and, for the most part, manage to remain civil and even fairly open-minded.

[M. (hristine]

Which is why you are an awesome moderator, Donna.

[Dude]

El Kevin, I too have suffered a miscarriage, so I understand your point poignantly when you say that telling a woman that all she's lost is a "clump of cells" will not go over well with her.

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone with my comments and yes, that was a very clinical way of looking at things in the context of a debate. But tell that same woman she has a "clump of cells" that's metastized into a malignant brain tumor and she wouldn't be too happy either. The amount of suffering that cancer alone causes - both the victims and the loved ones / caregivers - is enormous and something I feel we should be devoting all of our resources towards eliminating.

 

Wouldn't it be great to find a cure for this in our lifetimes? And since we're on the topic of kids, wouldn't it be great to raise our kids in a world without cancer or leukemia? I'd happily donate embryos towards that cause and I'm sure my future wife would agree.

 

Again, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but this is something I feel strongly about.

[kidsmoke]

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone with my comments and yes, that was a very clinical way of looking at things in the context of a debate. But tell that same woman she has a "clump of cells" that's metastized into a malignant brain tumor and she wouldn't be too happy either. The amount of suffering that cancer alone causes - both the victims and the loved ones / caregivers - is enormous and something I feel we should be devoting all of our resources towards eliminating.

 

Wouldn't it be great to find a cure for this in our lifetimes? And since we're on the topic of kids, wouldn't it be great to raise our kids in a world without cancer or leukemia? I'd happily donate embryos towards that cause and I'm sure my future wife would agree.

 

Again, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but this is something I feel strongly about.

 

I didn't take it personally, Kevin....just understood what ElF was saying there.

 

I, too, feel strongly that we can't find these cures quickly enough, and that research toward that end needs to be supported.

[John Smith]

This is what Bill Frist is sending out to his minions. Notice the language this filth monger uses...

 

I often email you with the latest developments in the Democrat agenda of obstruction and defeat ... whether its their most recent attempt to raise your taxes ... or to cut and run in Iraq ... or to prevent us from stopping the desecration of the American flag.

 

But today, after a long and productive week in the Senate, I want to share with you a story of success ... a story of responsible, common sense goverance.

 

This week, the Senate passed and the President signed a ban on fetal farming -- the morally heinous practice of implanting a human embryo in a human or animal for the purpose of aborting this nascent human life for research.

 

This week, the Senate passed a resolution supporting Israel and its right to self-defense ... and condemning the terrorists of Hezbollah, Hamas and their state sponsors in Iran and Syria.

 

This week, the Senate reauthorized the Voting Right Act, honoring those whose sacrifices opened the voting booth for millions of Americans and continuing the progress we

[Gobias Industries]

This list of accomplishments represent real steps in the wrong direction ... but, make no mistake, we have lots of destroying left to do. We must confirm John Bolton as our Ambassador to the United Nations (thus tearing the UN apart through useless bickering) ... we must end the unfair death tax (to plunge us farther into our deficits and debt)... we must pass the line item veto so we can curb our habit of irresponsible spending (because that's how idiots manage the budget).

 

Fixed it for Bill Frist.

[kidsmoke]

Wow, that is some really, really terrifying shit. What times we live in!

 

poortranslator, you made me crack up, even in these scary shit times. I thank you.

[Mr. Kinsley]

Here's the opening and closing paragraphs. Am I the only one, regardless of your political persuasion, who sees the irony/hypocrisy in this?

 

I often email you with the latest developments in the Democrat agenda of obstruction and defeat ... whether its their most recent attempt to raise your taxes ... or to cut and run in Iraq ... or to prevent us from stopping the desecration of the American flag.

 

...

 

But these accomplishments show that -- when we put partisan bickering and obstruction aside -- we can govern responsibly and in the best interests of the American people.

[Gobias Industries]

Wow, that is some really, really terrifying shit. What times we live in!

 

poortranslator, you made me crack up, even in these scary shit times. I thank you.

 

I try.

[EL the Famous]

I, too, feel strongly that we can't find these cures quickly enough, and that research toward that end needs to be supported.

 

Ditto, never did I state otherwise. Cancer and like diseases are horrible and I hope this research has a way of becoming a reality. Especially after reading the article posted earlier, that aside from the focus on the horrible decision to veto this bill by the President, we focus as well on the adult cell research deemed just as valuable by the scientific community...the same bill voted down in a poltical power play by our Democratic representatives and one that W does support. I realize the first is way more important, but the political bent of the whole damn thing by all parties involved shows me that helping people is the last thing on any of these people's mind.

 

Donna, my guess is that somebody complained that the whole thign was bringing the board down. Which is ridiculous. I don't agree w/ your stepping in, but as I respect you and your role...i'm done.

[Mr. Kinsley]

Wow. You're right. I am getting groggy.

 

[John Smith]

Ultimately if these people really believed the whole stem cell issue is equal to murder, they would work to make it illegal, private sector or public. Also the argument is made that the private sector does research better, and most advances come from the private sector. When the government funds research it is usually funding research schools (universities) or it is funding private sector research. So when they say they want the private sector to perform the research they are being hypocritical on the not wanting to fund murder issue, and they are being disengenuous on the public/private issue. In other words more of the same bullshit from the wrong side of the tracks.

[wheelco]

meat is murder, folkies