awatt Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 The recent flare-up with the Pope and Muslims just confirms what is clear in historical record: religion leads to more death and suffering in human history than healing and emancipation. Am I wrong? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 (edited) I can't imagine how a flame war could possibly break out on this thread. Edited September 19, 2006 by MrRain422 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
awatt Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 Ok, I take it all back. Religion is all good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn_skurj Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Ideally, religion should keep people from killing other people. But wicked persons manipulate people's strong religious feelings to get them to do wickedness upon their fellow humans. You could get rid of religion, but I'm pretty sure we'd still find shit to kill each other over. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Basil II Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Ideally, religion should keep people from killing other people. But wicked persons manipulate people's strong religious feelings to get them to do wickedness upon their fellow humans. You could get rid of religion, but I'm pretty sure we'd still find shit to kill each other over. Booze. "Love "....whatever that is... Money....nuf said.... Prestge and Power.....let the carnage begin!!!\ --Robert. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Religion can help spur tribal and ideological conflict. Modernity has been a balm on that. Most places where religion causes the most conflict are in a lurch between the feudal system and modernity (think Afghanistan). Of course, modernity, itself, claimed its own victims (French revolution, USSR, Nazi Germany, etc) as people have tried to force new, thought out but untested forms of government on the world. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
awatt Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 On second thought, I'm sticking to my original position.... In spite of recent studies showing religious affiliation can be a factor in living longer and having better health, human history provides ample evidence of religion as crucial factor in carnage, murder, and pain inflicted on others. The Pope's recent remarks only remind us of this fact. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nicburto Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 doesn't Revelations say that an evil ruler will come to power under the guise of a great positive leader and the world will be behind him until he turns us on each other? I remember that and it always seems to be one of the most terrifying and likely things to happen that you read about in the Bible. Scary because it's actually plausible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mountain bed Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I don't think you're wrong,but it's a touchy subject to say the least.Along with the other instincts we have as humans,there also seems to be an innate desire in all of us to seek answers that explain the unexplainable.Is that the main function of organized religion? It perplexes me in some ways that it is so important to find all the answers to the keys of existence.Don't you find it somewhat liberating NOT to know? From personal experience,it appears you find more when you're not actively seeking.Those are the fleeting moments to treasure. To each his own & no flames,agreed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 This will end well. Religion is used by evil people to justify their evil. It is used by good people for good things as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
deepseacatfish Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I think spirituality (in some/any form) is a profoundly wonderful thing, and an essential part of being human. For me organized religion doesn't work, and I've tried almost all the main ones, but I still consider myself a religious person--though not really affiliated with any one religion specifically. Fanaticism in any form can be a dangerous thing, whether it's nationalism, religious fervor, or even extreme love of a sports team. To the best of my knowledge the main values of every major religion in the world preach spiritual devotion, peacefullness, kindness, charity, and moderation. I'm sure intolerance, violence, and hatred will forever be a part of religious organizations--even if only in small extremist pockets--as well as nationalist, ethnic, and political movements as long as people continue to believe that in whatever realm they are that there is only one right path and they know it. I sincerely hope that someday tolerance and understanding will be the basic underlying values of every human being, but I don't know that it will happen soon. In the meantime as an individual I will continue to do my best to be as tolerant of everyone as I can possibly be, no matter how fanatic or moderate their ideological leaning. Everything is a little step forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I think, all and all, it's a fair question to ask. Sure, people have strong opinions on it, but does that mean it can't be talked about? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mountain bed Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I sincerely hope that someday tolerance and understanding will be the basic underlying values of every human being, but I don't know that it will happen soon.Someday soon,my friend Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OOO Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 The number of people killed under Stalin and Mao Ze Dong convinces me that lack of religion does not stop violence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Along with the other instincts we have as humans,there also seems to be an innate desire in all of us to seek answers that explain the unexplainable.Is that the main function of organized religion? It perplexes me in some ways that it is so important to find all the answers to the keys of existence.Don't you find it somewhat liberating NOT to know? From personal experience,it appears you find more when you're not actively seeking.Those are the fleeting moments to treasure.For some reason, this made me track down a couple quotes from I Heard the Owl Call My Name, a book I wish I still owned. "There's a good bit of agnostic in all of us...None of us knows much--only enough to trust to reach out in the dark." 'There are two kinds of naivete: one not aware of the problems, and another which has knocked on all the doors of knowledge and knows man can explain little, and is still willing to follow his convictions into the unknown.' - Albert Schweitzer I can see the appeal of shunning organized religion. However, I think this often removes the community aspect of religion and thus neuters much of the good and the bad. Do you want to help the poor, the homeless? Ok, go do it. Not sure how? It's easier with something like a church, which can pool resources and unite people in a common cause. We see this in some of the great political movements in our country's history. Abolition, the end of Jim Crow, etc. Today, many churches are at the forefront of the peace movement. Furthemore, in our contemporary American culture (I can not speak for our friends in other places), we are increasingly isolated and alienated from our neighbors. Do you know more about Brad Pitt or the person who lives next door? For me, it's sadly the former. The "bowling alone" phenomenon. I believe churches give us opportunities to reconnect with our neighbors. "In the first place the parochial organization should always be attacked, being a unity of place and not of likings, it brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity the Enemy desires." -The Screwtape Letters The number of people killed under Stalin and Mao Ze Dong convinces me that lack of religion does not stop violence.Credited. This blood is on the hands of Modernity's New Forms. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mountain bed Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 'There are two kinds of naivete: one not aware of the problems, and another which has knocked on all the doors of knowledge and knows man can explain little, and is still willing to follow his convictions into the unknown.' - Albert SchweitzerThanks,Jorge.An amazing quote.Reminder to self: 'look up "I Heard the Owl". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Duck-Billed Catechist Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060919/ap_on_.../kerry_religion MALIBU, Calif. - Democratic Sen.John Kerry on Monday urged people of faith to work cooperatively on problems such as poverty, global warming and reducing the number of abortions Quote Link to post Share on other sites
viatroy Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 At the risk of offending almost everyone, I believe the "big 3" religions are focused primarily on petty competition for claim to the legitmate origins of said religions. Buncha hooey. Spirituality I have no problem with. Organized religion seems incapable of addressing spirituality without the politicking. The dynamics of human group interaction don't change much after kindergarten. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
j4lackey Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 "In all things, moderation". Whether it's religion, french fries, or sex. mmmmmmm........... french fries and sex........... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 As has been said, more or less, by others here already, I don't feel the religion itself is the problem -- it's the twisting of religion by evil pigfuckers that is the problem. I am not religious myself -- I have no use for it personally. But I do believe, for instance, that Jesus was a great man and a charismatic teacher, and that he wanted the best for humanity. Unfortunately, his teachings have been bastardized and turned into a source of wealth and power and a foundation for hatred by people like Pat Robertson, to name just one very prominent example. To me, Robertson is the epitome of the "evil pigfucker" I referenced earlier -- and he's not even the worst of them. Religions have their "good" adherents and their "bad" ones. Sadly, the bad ones tend to be more adept at attracting followers, using the media to their advantage, lining their own pockets, and buying into the governmental power structure. This holds true not only in the U.S., but elsewhere. The evil pigfuckers are more interested in increasing their own power and influence, and controlling the lives of as many people as they can, than in the honest application of the teachings of their professed religion. When religion becomes an issue of power and control and political agendas instead of love and community and charity, it has been bastardized to the point where it is no longer a religion, no longer about spirituality. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
owl Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Too bad there isn't an extra commandment that says "Thou Shalt Not Use Religion As A Means To Thine Own Ends, Nor Commit Violence In The Name Of Religion." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ction Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Since organized religion was created by humans, wouldn't that mean humans are the problem (not the answer)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
austrya Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 A little tolerance goes a long way when it comes to religion. I'm a pretty religious person (Catholic), but I realize that not everyone has the same beliefs that I do, and that's ok. I have friends who are Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, Athiest, etc. I respect their beliefs and I would hope that they would respect mine. The problem comes in when people stop respecting others and try to push their beliefs where they are not wanted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Since organized religion was created by humans, wouldn't that mean humans are the problem (not the answer)?I've been trying to tell people that for years. Seriously, human extinction sounds like a great thing to me. And it can't come soon enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LouieB Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Modernity has been a balm on that.This was the point Pope Ben was trying to make, but made it so badly we now have a problem. Even words can kill I guess. LouieB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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