More on the "controversy"

[Good Old Neon]

Stay tuned for her next book: "More Ranting From a Socialist Wacko"

 

Great way to dismiss a brilliant book - and an entire philosophy.

[caliber66]

Captain dots:

 

You have shown that you can have a sense of humor at times, you're articulate and you're certainly passionate about music. Yet the only place you post is in these threads, where you are automatically on the defensive, and you're not making any friends by continuing to harp on a subject on which just about everyone here disagrees with you. How about making some forays out into the other forums and just hanging out a bit? Because while this has certainly been an entertaining couple days, the only thing new that anyone has added lately has been the chapter of that book you've posted twice now. Give people a chance to cool off (and to read that thing, if you want to discuss it further) and maybe go post something about Yngve Malmsteen in Someone Else's Song. Just a suggestion.

 

Sincerely,

Immaturit E. Newman

[ction]

Captain dots:

 

You have shown that you can have a sense of humor at times, you're articulate and you're certainly passionate about music. Yet the only place you post is in these threads, where you are automatically on the defensive, and you're not making any friends by continuing to harp on a subject on which just about everyone here disagrees with you. How about making some forays out into the other forums and just hanging out a bit? Because while this has certainly been an entertaining couple days, the only thing new that anyone has added lately has been the chapter of that book you've posted twice now. Give people a chance to cool off (and to read that thing, if you want to discuss it further) and maybe go post something about Yngve Malmsteen in Someone Else's Song. Just a suggestion.

 

Sincerely,

Immaturit E. Newman

 

It's "Yngwie", smart guy.

[caliber66]

It's "Yngwie", smart guy.

Actually, I meant to say "Rick Astley." Boy is my face red.

[Dan-O]

Great way to dismiss a brilliant book - and an entire philosophy.

You are correct... I dismiss the philosophy of socialism, communism and any others that directly oppose individual liberty (the concept this country was founded on). I suck that way.

 

Anyway, back to the topic... it doesn't make any difference to me how much money Wilco makes. I'll be a fan as long as they are making music that I dig. They output music, I listen. The rest of it is their business... literally and figuratively.

[Good Old Neon]

You are correct... I dismiss the philosophy of socialism, communism and any others that directly oppose individual liberty (the concept this country was founded on). I suck that way.

 

Anyway, back to the topic... it doesn't make any difference to me how much money Wilco makes. I'll be a fan as long as they are making music that I dig. They output music, I listen. The rest of it is their business... literally and figuratively.

 

Have a look and find me the part about her being a socialist or a communist.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein

 

When you are done, report back well and truly.

 

Branding IS the topic at hand.

[cryptique]

Great way to dismiss a brilliant book - and an entire philosophy.

Sounds like a good book, and I'll probably read it someday.

 

However, you've not managed to establish any real connection between that book and the Wilco/VW situation. Merely referencing the book doesn't suffice. Why is it relevant?

 

OK, so Wilco is involved with VW, VW is a brand, and they're trying to establish a brand identity. Is that inherently evil? It definitely has its darker side, but for most companies, it's merely an attempt to establish a competitive presence in the marketplace -- there's no underlying ulterior motive except to improve their sales figures.

 

That's what companies do -- try to sell their products, and if possible, try to sell more of them this year than last year. VW does that. So does the diner on the corner in your hometown. That diner probably buys some advertising to try to increase sales. They don't care if people wear T-shirts and jeans bearing their logo -- they just want to make a living. VW operates on a larger scale, but I haven't seen any evidence yet that they want people to start living some kind of VW lifestyle that manifests itself through a comprehensive expression of their brand. They just want to attract more customers, preferably in a younger demographic -- so they're offering cars at lower entry-level prices, and they're using music as part of that effort. But why do they want younger customers? Is it because they want to turn them into brand-obsessed VW zombies? No, it's because selling cars to young people makes good business sense -- if you sell someone a VW when she's 24, and she likes it, chances are decent that she'll buy another VW the next time she needs a car. Sure, they're pumping up their brand, but really, not much more than that diner on the corner is doing.

 

There isn't automatically a nefarious element to marketing. You seem to be implying that there is -- that it's inherent. I would argue that in some isolated cases there is such an element, but in most cases it's just a matter of capitalism doing what it does -- trying to "move more units." You may not like capitalism (I don't, particularly), but our society operates according to its rules (mostly), so it's the system we have to deal with, and we're all a part of it. We engage it every day, in some form, unless we're living in that shack in Montana without electricity or running water and we make everything we use with our bare hands. You simply can't get away from it.

 

Do you need to surrender to capitalism, or its expression, marketing? No ... just be mindful of the effects it has on you, and try to mitigate those effects the best you can. Should we scorn or shun those who participate in marketing campaigns? That's a slippery slope -- because if you start condemning such people (or artists, in this case), you'll have two choices: condemn damn near everyone, or be a hypocrite with more double standards than principles.

 

jnickerson, or ...., or whoever you are -- trust us, we see your point, even if we don't agree with it. We've seen it dozens and dozens of times, because you keep hammering on it again and again. Enough already. You're not going to change our minds, and it's painfully obvious that we're not going to change yours. Just let it go. Walk away. Give it a rest. Chill the fuck out. Et cetera.

[jhh4321]

As many of you are aware, Volkswagen has recently begun running a series of TV commercials featuring Wilco music.

 

Why? This is a subject we've discussed internally many times over the years regarding movies, TV shows and even the odd advertisement. With the commercial radio airplay route getting more difficult for many bands (including Wilco); we see this as another way to get the music out there. As with most of the above (with the debatable exception of radio) the band gets paid for this. And we feel okay about VWs. Several of us even drive them.

 

If you're keeping track, this is not the first time Wilco has licensed a song to or even been involved in a commercial -- most recently a TV spot for Telefonica Mobile in Spain used a Wilco song and some years prior Jeff Tweedy appeared in a campaign for Apple Computer. Wilco have licensed hundreds of songs to television shows and films worldwide... from festival-only indie films to major motion pictures and weekly TV shows.

 

Thus far the songs in the VW campaign are "The Thanks I Get" (a bonus track from Sky Blue Sky sessions, available for download via the Enhanced CD and via iTunes) and "You are my Face". We expect to have more details re: other songs shortly. The current plan (subject to change, like everything) is for 5 or 6 songs to be used.

 

That's it. Don't believe everything you read unless you read it here.

 

HQ

 

n.p. Kicking Television

[ShuckOwens]

Was everyone here pretty ticked off about the Tweedy kids appearing in Quaker Oats spots a couple of years back?

[Sir Stewart]

Was everyone here pretty ticked off about the Tweedy kids appearing in Quaker Oats spots a couple of years back?

I'm pretty sure absolutely no one here was.

[jhh4321]

I'm pretty sure absolutely no one here was.

 

The Blisters are sellouts for sure, but they sort of lost their magic a while back with all the coke and groupies.

[Stan]

My take:-

 

Unless VW has some sort of child sweat shop operation in effect (Nike, Gap anyone?) then I have little interest in how much money Wilco make. In fact, pretty much the more the better. Wilco is a business with quite a few people to support now.

 

I am much more interested in how it is SPENT. Only then could I lose respect in any individuals involved. Living grounded family lives. No problem. Jeff Tweedy suddenly gets all blinged up, then I start to sigh. And that's not going to happen

 

Don't know why there is so much of a rumpus over this. Let him that hath no sin and all that. How many completely ethical shoppers are there here. Frankly life is too short for me.

[boywiththorninside]

You need to cut those who are upset by the ads a break. There is a grieving process we are going through. Nickerson seems to still be somewhere between stage 2 and 3 - anger and bargaining. However, soon he will be where I am: depressed, but moving towards acceptance (stages 4 and 5).

 

My last word on the thing before I truly embrace acceptance is to tell a story. Please indulge me.

 

Last year in an Entertainment Law class I had the misfortune of taking, I got into it with my professor about artistic integrity. My professor, in advancing an argument in favor of stringent copyright laws, mocked the notion that anyone creates art for the sake of art. She essentially said that all artists, today and in the past, have used art as a way to get paid or laid. I took offense to this notion and cited Wilco and Tweedy as a present day example that she was clearly wrong. She had never heard of Tweedy, so I showed her some quotes from his Lessig discussion and the Wired magazine interview he did ("music is not a loaf of bread"). She seemed unimpressed, but still I felt, with Tweedy's words on my side, I had the better argument. Unfortunately, a year later, I feel she had the truth and I had only idealistic delusion. It's a tough pill to swallow, but I guess I have to accept it.

[caliber66]

I'm pretty sure Tweedy has used art to get both paid and laid since he began making music with the Primatives.

[boywiththorninside]

I'm pretty sure Tweedy has used art to get both paid and laid since he began making music with the Primatives.

 

You're surely right. You are a man or woman of reason. I need to lighten up. It's just I like having my illusions. We all need them, you know.

[Good Old Neon]

You need to cut those who are upset by the ads a break. There is a grieving process we are going through. Nickerson seems to still be somewhere between stage 2 and 3 - anger and bargaining. However, soon he will be where I am: depressed, but moving towards acceptance (stages 4 and 5).

 

My last word on the thing before I truly embrace acceptance is to tell a story. Please indulge me.

 

Last year in an Entertainment Law class I had the misfortune of taking, I got into it with my professor about artistic integrity. My professor, in advancing an argument in favor of stringent copyright laws, mocked the notion that anyone creates art for the sake of art. She essentially said that all artists, today and in the past, have used art as a way to get paid or laid. I took offense to this notion and cited Wilco and Tweedy as a present day example that she was clearly wrong. She had never heard of Tweedy, so I showed her some quotes from his Lessig discussion and the Wired magazine interview he did ("music is not a loaf of bread"). She seemed unimpressed, but still I felt, with Tweedy's words on my side, I had the better argument. Unfortunately, a year later, I feel she had the truth and I had only idealistic delusion. It's a tough pill to swallow, but I guess I have to accept it.

 

Thanks for the defense -

 

One word of advice, in the future, should you have another similiar discussion with the same or a different professor - Fugazi might be a better example - those boys are even more militant than this old fool.

 

As for the laid portion of the discussion - well, I have no comments to offer insofar as their libidos are concerned.

[EL the Famous]

Branding IS the topic at hand.

 

See, really it's not...or maybe not in the way your looking at it in context to your displeasure over this whole thing.

 

The section of that book that discusses and provides examples of how advertising/marketing has become so intrusive as companies look towards more non-traditional approaches to increase brand visibility is severely flawed. Is painting an entire block pink (from the Barbie example) intrusive because the purpose is to sell more Barbie dolls or is it intrusive because THE ENTIRE BLOCK IS PINK? My point is, that there are thousands of examples of performance or guerilla or whatever the term du jour types of non-traditional art just as intrusive.

 

Wilco has commisioned certain graphics companies to generate posters for many of their shows or, depending on the situation, at least the venues have. Should these posters be considered advertisement or art? Both? Also, do they not perpetuate the band's 'brand'...yes, this band is looked at not just as a group of guys making 'art', but one that requires a structure and ethos to support it's ability to do so. I'll take it a step further in saying that I am hard pressed to believe that the ONLY reason they stream these albums and shows is because they just want people to hear and enjoy it...it continues to keep the name 'Wilco' in your consciousness and/or expose their art/product to more consumers.

 

Finally, i'll state something that may be a little out there and sure to engage some detractors...isn't the name 'Wilco' a true brand in and of itself? It hasn't been the same band since it's first release, but it has always carried on under the same moniker...why is that? Re-branding the band would be suicidal from a business perspective, the name 'Wilco' has picked up such equity that calling the band anything else would cast that aside.

 

Anyway, i'm probably off topic at this point...but my goal is just to illustrate two things:

 

1. the concepts of Advertising/Marketing/Brands/ Etc. are not so black/white...good/evil...whatever.

 

2. someone who wants to see their art continue to have life and make a living in making said art, must make it a business at some level or put a business structure around it to keep perpetuating it.

 

P.S. I love adbusters too or at least the creativity of it...but it and the autor you cited are no leass egotistical than the companies it rallies against. It assumes ALL or even the majority of people are too stupid to think for themselves when it comes to consumerism and I don't buy into their extremist view on the subject. A for effort though.

[Sir Stewart]

P.S. I love adbusters too or at least the creativity of it...but it and the autor you cited are no leass egotistical than the companies it rallies against. It assumes ALL or even the majority of people are too stupid to think for themselves when it comes to consumerism and I don't buy into their extremist view on the subject. A for effort though.

Good point - I had a subscription to Adbusters for a year or so before realizing I was tired of being yelled at/talked down to. I can turn on the TV and get the same feeling.

[Dan-O]

Have a look and find me the part about her being a socialist or a communist.

From the website nologo.org:

 

"Look at the homeless person down the street and figure out how many people have been the evicted in your town because of rising rents and cuts to welfare."

 

Welfare is inherently socialist. Government enforced rent control is inherently anti-capitalist/communist. She is clearly in favor of using government force to redistribute the earnings of citizens and control markets. I'm all for helping your fellow man... I just don't believe it's the proper role of government to reach into its citizens wallets and give what it finds to other individuals or corporations.

 

There are a ton of things on that site which reinforce that organizations socialist agenda.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to get all political, but you brought it up. Back to topic... The new Wilco record is fantastic regardless of any present or future success. If it sells 10 million copies and appears in 20 commercials, it's still a great record.

[mountain bed]

Finally, i'll state something that may be a little out there and sure to engage some detractors...isn't the name 'Wilco' a true brand in and of itself? It hasn't been the same band since it's first release, but it has always carried on under the same moniker...why is that? Re-branding the band would be suicidal from a business perspective, the name 'Wilco' has picked up such equity that calling the band anything else would cast that aside.

I think that's spot on El F. Especially when you consider that there has been a revolving cast of characters throughout the 13 year history. Another example: King Crimson--a great band, stellar musicians at every point in the band's history, probably close to two dozen different members in total. The man in charge was, and always has been, Robert Fripp. Why, with each change in lineup/musical aspirations has the name KC continued to be used? Why not call it the Fripp band or something else entirely? Very simple: brand name recognition. RF himself has said as much. Do you want the band to continue to grow & attract new fans as well as keep the older ones? Or start from square one- playing to a small, devoted cult?

 

Although the musical styles are entirely different, there are parallels between the two bands imo.

[mastershake]

i don't know why anyone would be upset with wilco making money... they deserve it way more than linkin park or nickelback or the like

[Good Old Neon]

From the website nologo.org:

 

"Look at the homeless person down the street and figure out how many people have been the evicted in your town because of rising rents and cuts to welfare."

 

Welfare is inherently socialist. Government enforced rent control is inherently anti-capitalist/communist. She is clearly in favor of using government force to redistribute the earnings of citizens and control markets. I'm all for helping your fellow man... I just don't believe it's the proper role of government to reach into its citizens wallets and give what it finds to other individuals or corporations.

 

There are a ton of things on that site which reinforce that organizations socialist agenda.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to get all political, but you brought it up. Back to topic... The new Wilco record is fantastic regardless of any present or future success. If it sells 10 million copies and appears in 20 commercials, it's still a great record.

 

I disagree with you 110% - but let

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

But, but, the VW press release says that this is Wilco's first-ever licensing deal or something like that.

[ction]

One word of advice, in the future, should you have another similiar discussion with the same or a different professor - Fugazi might be a better example - those boys are even more militant than this old fool.

 

Fugazi really isn't a better example though - they still made a living from their music. It was a relatively meager living, for sure, and one spent on the road for long periods of time (among other sacrifices). But I don't think those guys had to work day jobs much past the first tour.

 

Also, I'm not sure that Ian MacKaye has ever condemned bands that didn't adhere to his concept of how to do business. In fact, his label released records by at least a couple of bands who later went on to sign with major labels. If he's militant, it's in regards to living up to his own standards, not judging others who fail to meet his expectations.

[Dreamin']

The section of that book that discusses and provides examples of how advertising/marketing has become so intrusive as companies look towards more non-traditional approaches to increase brand visibility is severely flawed. Is painting an entire block pink (from the Barbie example) intrusive because the purpose is to sell more Barbie dolls or is it intrusive because THE ENTIRE BLOCK IS PINK? My point is, that there are thousands of examples of performance or guerilla or whatever the term du jour types of non-traditional art just as intrusive.

True, but you can't ignore scale. I don't see public art filling nearly every crevice of available space. A really hot topic in Vancouver right now is the plan to erect large billboards that will block some pretty spectacular views. To put this in context, we have height restrictions for office towers to prevent the city skyline from dominating the mountains. (It's kind of ironic that the First Peoples are doing this to us now. Karma? Oof!)

 

 

Those dam Canadians and their socialized medicine/social services!!!!

When someone made a joke about Neil Young and trading beaver pelts in the other thread, I was going to say that we just wait for the govt. to pay for everything.