How Much Music Theory Does Jeff Know?

[caliber66]

some people think that music theory is not necessary, and will hinder your composition abilities...

The point is this: you (and others) keep saying that if you're writing songs that people like, you must be using music theory that you have learned one way or another - either through listening to music or by taking formal classes. If you're saying Jeff should be applying some kind of music theory to his music, and he clearly is already doing that, then there is no debate to be had. If you're saying that he should be taking classes, which you seem not to be saying (and sometimes you seem to be), then that's debatable. Which is it?

[lost highway]

Exactly. Jeff applies music theory already to the music he makes. So what's there to debate here?

 

I just thought it was an interesting conversation with lots of little debates going on. The title of the thread is "How much theory does jeff....?" While no one seems completely sure its an interesting question and it has lead to a much more interesting question: "does theory matter?"

 

Incidently, the Dylan argument keeps coming up, but it seems off the mark. I love Bob Dylan. What makes his songs amazing is his lyrics, his narrratives, and his dramatic delivery. Saying Dylan doesn't need theory is the same as saying Peter, Paul and Mary don't need theory, but that's not what makes either example amazing or totally banal. (sorry P,P and M fans)

 

Would there be Coltrane without theory? No.

Would there be Leonard Cohen without theory? Depends, do you mean him or his string arrangements.

Would there be Wilco without theory? It seems some material yes, and some no.

[GtrPlyr]

Would there be Coltrane without theory? No.

Would there be Leonard Cohen without theory? Depends, do you mean him or his string arrangements.

Would there be Wilco without theory? It seems some material yes, and some no.

You could drop some aliens into a room with some instruments and they'd be able to create music. The ability to create music has little to do with any prior knowledge of theory. After the art is produced you may be able to draw comparisons to various harmonic or rhythmic principles, but this doesn't mean those principles had anything to do with the initial creation of said piece.

[lost highway]

Would aliens be able to make a good record without theory? Yes.

[a.miller]

I thougt about this topic last night and came up with some ideas....

 

I think most are in agreeance that Jeff's (Wilco's) music has greatly evolved since its (their) start. If I were to take a guess, I'd say that on A.M. and Being There, most of the writing "happened" and wasn't "arranged" as much as I feel the new(er) material is. I think the musical complexities of AGIB and SBS lend a hand to what a knowledge of music theory can bring to the table. Even in looking at YHF, the songs were rather simple with (a lot of) ambient noise and layered sound -- but not as musically complex as AGIB and SBS. I think Jeff mentioned them being "dressed up folk songs" or something to that extent. IMO, AGIB and SBS' complexity cannot be obtained without some degree of understanding of music theory.

 

Maybe it's Nels influence, I'm not sure. The difference, I think, could simply be understanding what's happening in the music. If you tell someone without any theory knowledge to play a 5th, they might go to the 5th fret of the guitar and play a note, which really isn't what's being asked.

 

So, I think -- do you have to know music theory: No

-- does it help: Yes

[cryptique]

IMO, AGIB and SBS' complexity cannot be obtained without some degree of understanding of music theory.

 

Maybe it's Nels influence, I'm not sure.

In the case of AGIB, no, it's not.

[MattZ]

Side question: Why is it called theory? There's nothing theoretical about it. 1, 3, 5 make up a major chord. No matter what key you are in. That's fact, not theory.

[cash]

Would aliens be able to make a good record without theory? Yes.

What sort of aliens are we talking about?

[entropy]

Mexicans?!?!?!

[jkretz]

blah blah theory blah wankery blah blah intellectual masturbation blah blah

 

theory can help, it's not necessary, admiring something for musical complexity i find to be pretty cheap and trite. creative expression seems to be about evoking a response from the audience. i'm usually not moved by thinking "oh nice use of a modal there"

 

my 2 cents..

[coast to coast]

whatever happens, you're still gonna have to count, so don't leap to steve vai when you think of theory.

[cryptique]

don't leap to steve vai

Can we make Steve Vai leap somewhere? Off a bridge, perhaps?

[Chendizzle]

Would aliens be able to make a good record without theory? Yes.

What sort of aliens are we talking about?

 

 

Whoa whoa whoa...aliens exist??

[GtrPlyr]

Whoa whoa whoa...aliens exist??

They do, and they're jamming right now in some subterranean bunker at area 51. The tall gray one playing the theremin is actually quite good... Wait, is that the Star Trek theme I hear?

[WaronWar]

Many of the jazz greats who really changed the game....Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman...had little if any formal training.

 

I know Miles Davis went to a music school in New York, and he took a music theory class, and I believe he got a B in it. It was in the bio "So What," but I don't own the book. As to the others, I am factuallly unsure.

[cash]

They do, and they're jamming right now in some subterranean bunker at area 51. The tall gray one playing the theremin is actually quite good... Wait, is that the Star Trek theme I hear?

I hear they all took theory courses at the age of 122 nanoseconds...

[markosis]

I like Wilco

[lost highway]

What sort of aliens are we talking about?

 

Nels Cline is an alien flower pot.

[kafkadog]

Side question: Why is it called theory? There's nothing theoretical about it. 1, 3, 5 make up a major chord. No matter what key you are in. That's fact, not theory.

Hmmm. There are certainly a lot of interesting scientific questions that can be asked about human perception of music and why we perceive certain combinations of notes to be more harmonious than others, and certain sequences of notes more melodic than others, and certain rhythms catchier (or certain "beats" "doper") than others. But I don't know enough about music "theory" to know whether it is capable of providing a satisfyingly comprehensive answer to such perceptual questions.

 

That's what theories do in science--provide answers to "why?" questions. Why is 1, 3, 5 a major chord--what's special about that particular combination of intervals? Why do minor chords sound sadder than major chords? And I wouldn't assume that aliens would perceive music the same way we do, given the large cross-cultural differences in and ongoing evolution of human musical styles. Some of our perception surely depends on what we've grown up listening to.

 

Amusingly (to me at least), my "kafkadog" handle refers to a story in which a dog "scientist" ponders some of the mysteries of canine existence, including dogs' perception of "music." (Sorry if that's too masturbatory, jkretz....)

 

Anyway, I object to the notion that knowledge of theory somehow impedes musical creativity. It's just another tool for the songwriter to use or not use as he or she sees fit. If Jeff thinks he needs to add more theory to his tool kit, I'm sure it won't hinder his songwriting. But there's no guarantee it would improve it, either!

[Artifex]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I might want to mention that you can know music theroy without going to school for it. As a songwriter myself, I've self-taught myself some theroy to improve my compositions. I admit when I first started acutally learning how stuff fits together it seemed to limit my ideas, but that was early on and as you mature as a songwriter and increase your knowlage it's a non-issue. I would say it's a fair bet that Jeff Tweedy knows at least some basic theory...he also knows his way around a fretboard very well, as I can tell from learning his songs and seeing the aucostic solo adaptations of his songs he does with Wilco.

 

I would consider Nels Cline a 'trained' musician for sure. Yes he's self-taught, but he's a self-taught, well respected jazz musician, and you don't get so accomplished in jazz without knowing your stuff. And you can see how the songs Jeff wrote with Nels have that more 'trained' aspect to them ( I'm thinking in particular about the whole transitional part in 'You Are My Face'...not exactly the average chord progression a simple strummer would come up with.)

 

I won't ramble TOO much about this...but for consideration....compare You Are My Face to At Least Thats What You Said. Both require a transition into a louder section/ guitar solo. Both do it in very different ways, YAMF sets the song and listener up for the part musically so it has maximum impact, ALTWYS comes in with dissonant chords that rattle you, make you feel the message of the song, setting you up emotionally. Both do the same thing, in very different ways. You could even make a case that both use music theroy, which at it's heart is a study of tension and release. Besides, I'm sure an accomplished scholar of music could come up with some names for the chords used by the piano in ALTWYS.

[W(TF)]

Why is 1, 3, 5 a major chord--what's special about that particular combination of intervals? Why do minor chords sound sadder than major chords? And I wouldn't assume that aliens would perceive music the same way we do, given the large cross-cultural differences in and ongoing evolution of human musical styles. Some of our perception surely depends on what we've grown up listening to.

 

Not even aliens, but Asians. Isn't music theory another form of elitism or attempt to codify the predominant language of expression in favor of the west? It seems like it. Minor chords might not be sad if you grew up in a Tibetan monastery.

[kafkadog]

Not even aliens, but Asians. Isn't music theory another form of elitism or attempt to codify the predominant language of expression in favor of the west? It seems like it. Minor chords might not be sad if you grew up in a Tibetan monastery.

Well, I don't think music theory is a really a "theory" in the scientific sense of the word. Whatever it is, I think it's actually more descriptive than prescriptive--it at the very least provides Western listeners with the framework to understand how music from other cultures differs from "ours." Elitism exists, sure, but I like to think that most musicians (and theory-aware listeners) are more open-minded than that.

 

It's hard to abandon your musical upbringing, nor is it necessarily desirable. I love Neil Young because I grew up listening to my dad's record collection and to him working his way through the Decade songbook on guitar. I hope my daughters grow up loving Wilco for similar reasons. But even if minor chords never sound happy to them, I'm pretty sure they'll learn how to appreciate all kinds of music regardless of how much theory they might learn.

[W(TF)]

Yes, I just meant that we ("we", the west) have developed the language and categorizations of music according to what was normal (and "alien") to us. Most Asian societies have now accepted it, just as they've accepted the 'universality' of English.

[OOO]

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/theory

 

It's the 3rd definition. You may be thinking of one of the others?

 

"the general ...principles of a body of ... art "

[quosh]

This would be a great thread for Jeff to pop his VC cherry!