ZenLunatic Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I thing Clemens thinks he is. And possibly his attorney. So you think Clemens actually got steriods injected in him thinking it was something else? Something about that seems very unbelieveable to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Twisted Acres Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I know -- all I'm saying is that if anyone's ballot included Stottlemyre or Knoblauch but not Rice, I've got a can opener and a ready supply of whoopass. Gotcha. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 So you think Clemens actually got steriods injected in him thinking it was something else? Something about that seems very unbelieveable to me.No, but I think it's possible he's convinced himself he's innocent. I'll admit I haven't read the entire Mitchell report concerning him, but it appears there's a pretty solid case made that he injected/had someone inject PHDs. He and his attorney seem to be playing games with semantics. Link to post Share on other sites
Oil Can Boyd Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 No, but I think it's possible he's convinced himself he's innocent. I'll admit I haven't read the entire Mitchell report concerning him, but it appears there's a pretty solid case made that he injected/had someone inject PHDs. He and his attorney seem to be playing games with semantics.It all depends on what your definition of "is" is. Link to post Share on other sites
Chris_H_2 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 That's all I know is, if Clemens is telling the truth and he did get injected with Vitamin K and painkillers, then he should have had a prescription for the painkillers and, presumably, there should be a paper trail to prove it. My guess is that we'll never see one. Link to post Share on other sites
ZenLunatic Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 No, but I think it's possible he's convinced himself he's innocent. I'll admit I haven't read the entire Mitchell report concerning him, but it appears there's a pretty solid case made that he injected/had someone inject PHDs. He and his attorney seem to be playing games with semantics. If you have to convince yourself you are innocent, doesnt that mean you are guilty and lying to yourself. If you are innocent, there is no convincing needed. I really am losing all respect for Clemens at this point. It didnt matter much to me he did steriods, but to deny allegations and fabricate this stupid/ignorant plea is just embarrassing and low. Cmon face the consequences like a man like everyone else is. Why would a trainer inject a player with steriods without player consent and lie about what the shot was. For what benefit to the trainer? I dont see the logic in that. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 If you have to convince yourself you are innocent, doesnt that mean you are guilty and lying to yourself. If you are innocent, there is no convincing needed.Precisely. I'll give the man the benefit of the doubt at this point, but it may end up being another Pete Rose type deal where he just digs a deeper whole by not coming clean. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I know -- all I'm saying is that if anyone's ballot included Stottlemyre or Knoblauch but not Rice, I've got a can opener and a ready supply of whoopass. Rice wouldn't be on my ballot. Stottlemyre and Knoblauch wouldn't either. But Rice wouldn't be on just as much as those two. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I'm not surprised Rice didn't make the cut. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, he's a borderline candidate and probably just a tad under that border line. Rice may have a better chance when it goes to the Veteran's Committee vote, though. I'm glad Gossage got in as I've always thought he deserves it. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Hey LammyCat! Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Hola. Good to see a new baseball thread up and running. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but how have you been? Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied lightning Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 rice should be inhe was the most feared hitter in his era, case closed.he belongs, no discussion Link to post Share on other sites
cryptique Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I agree. Rice wouldn't be on my ballot. Stottlemyre and Knoblauch wouldn't either. But Rice wouldn't be on just as much as those two.Twobobs, you know I'm not the sort to pull age on you (I hope I've never done that before, anyway), but in this case I just have to say that unless you watched Rice back in the day, you can't really appreciate his greatness. Stats alone do not tell the story on him. I would grant that he's probably only borderline for the Hall of Fame, but to me he's across that line and Hall-worthy. Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied lightning Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 it's actually insane that he's not in.the system is corrupt Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 rice should be inhe was the most feared hitter in his era, case closed.he belongs, no discussion Sorry, but there is a discussion. He's a borderline guy, and a case can be made for him, but there's a strong one against him too. Why can't there be a discussion? It's not like we're talking about Babe Ruth here. Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I would put Albert Belle in above him. Link to post Share on other sites
Chris_H_2 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I would put Albert Belle in above him. So would I. Rob Neyer's got some pretty good points about his Hall considerations, as well as Rice's. Interestingly, one of the people that he thinks is most deserving is Trammell. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, but how have you been?I've been o.k., thanks. Rice's case for/against HOF-worthiness is the epitome of "borderline." I had the pleasure to be able to watch him play growing up and he was always a thrill to watch. However, when comparing him to other hitters in and about his era, a case can easily be made for and against HOF worthiness. HOF candidates and enshrinement really shouldn't be era-based, anyway. I think bobbob mentioned Dwight Evans and I think that it's a valid point to reiterate that Dewey doesn't even get mentioned as a HOF candidate while having a better overall career than Rice had. Really. Rice was certainly a hitter to be feared in his day, but I still say he falls below the hypothetical borderline for enshrinement. But again, he's picking up steam in terms of votes each year, so.... Link to post Share on other sites
MrRain422 Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 If Jim Rice had played anywhere else (other than maybe New York), his case would have run out of steam already. Link to post Share on other sites
Oil Can Boyd Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 If Jim Rice had played anywhere else (other than maybe New York), his case would have run out of steam already. Maybe. But you would still have people (like ESPN) making a compelling case: "During those 12 years, Rice was the most dominant player in the American League. Maybe not the best player -- I'd give that nod to George Brett. But check out Rice from 1975 to '86. He ranked first in the AL in games (1,766), first in at-bats (7,060), first in runs (1,098), first in hits (2,145), first in home runs (350), first in runs batted in (1,276), first in slugging percentage (.520), first in total bases (3,670), first in extra-base hits (752), first in go-ahead RBIs (325), first in multihit games (640), fourth in triples (73) -- so much for the notion that Rice was nothing but a plodder -- and fourth in batting average (.304). He also was first in outfield assists with 125." As I've mentioned previously, he was my favorite player as a kid and while part of me was disappointed that he didn't get in, part of me also thinks he shouldn't get in. As Lammycat said, Rice really is the epitome of a borderline Hall of Famer. Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied lightning Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 1974 Minor League Player of the Year, Pawtucket Red Sox, International League 1974 MVP International League, Pawtucket Red Sox 1975 Topps All-Star Rookie Team 8-time AL All-Star (1977-1980 & 1983-1986) AL MVP (1978) 6-time in top 5, AL MVP voting (1977-79,1983-84,1986) 2-time AL Silver Slugger Award Winner (1983 & 1984) 2-time AL Slugging Percentage Leader (1977 & 1978) AL OPS Leader (1978) 2-time AL At Bats Leader (1978 & 1981) AL Hits Leader (1978) 4-time AL Total Bases Leader (1977, 1978, 1979 & 1983) AL Triples Leader (1978) 3-time AL Home Run Leader (1977, 1978 & 1983) 2-time AL RBI Leader (1978 & 1983) 7 seasons over .300 382 home runs is the 11th best all-time among American League right-handed batters (4th when he retired) 20-Home Run Seasons: 11 (1975-1980 & 1982-1986) 30-Home Run Seasons: 4 (1977, 1978, 1979 & 1983) 40-Home Run Seasons: 1 (1978) 100 RBI Seasons: 8 (1975, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1984, 1985 & 1986) 100 Runs Scored Seasons: 3 (1977, 1978 & 1979) 200 Hits Seasons: 4 (1977, 1978, 1979 & 1986) that's enough stats for me to vote him in. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Playing Devil's Advocate, the last 5 seasons of Rice's career were unremarkable/poor. Just saying again....borderline case. The Mets in on Santana possibility:http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/13627791.html Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied lightning Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 imo, he in, and I won't be swayed this what makes sports fun my Reds signed Andy Phillips to a contract, so i'm happy Link to post Share on other sites
bobbob1313 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Playing Devil's Advocate, the last 5 seasons of Rice's career were unremarkable/poor. Just saying again....borderline case. He really only had 5 or 6 really great seasons. He wasn't ever a great defender. He lost his ability to walk during the middle of his career. etc. Definition of borderline. Link to post Share on other sites
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