MLB 2008 PT 2

[Lammycat]

The team would probably lose no more than 5 or 6 games per year with an average closer.

 

The reason Mariano is the greatest is mostly because of his postseason record. In the regular season, he mostly pitches when his team is ahead and he only goes one inning at a time. Same with Papelbon and most closers. This is why they are overrated. Most pitchers aren't going to blow a 2 or 3 run lead before they 3 outs. Mo is the best because in the postseason, he's pitching far more often in high leverage situations and he steps his game up.

 

It's an absolutely overrated position. Your best relief pitcher should not be saved for when you are up by 3 runs in the ninth.

Mariano's been around a lot longer. And has played for a team that up until recently has consistently made it into the post-season and deeply. Allowing for the time he's been around in comparison to Papelbon isn't really relevant. It can equally be said that Papelbon has stepped his game up in the post-season, as well.

 

Because your best relief pitcher should be used in other situations (middle relief, tied games, etc.) doesn't make the role of the closer any less important. You may be arguing the use of the closer more so than the relevance. Not all games that a closer comes in to and is expected to get 3+ outs are 3-run games, either, but often closer.

 

I also believe there's a mind-set to being able to come into a game that is 3-runs or less and effectively shut down a side, and with consistency and reliance, as compared to a starter or middle reliever in which the expectations of their respective roles is completely different.

 

Use of the closer is one issue. Relevance of the role and how effective any given closer performs is another. It could be said that the pinch-runner role is overrated, too, until the pinch runner does his job the way he's expected to.

[Lammycat]

You know it just dawned on me that we've had this discussion before. Probably about overrated/relevance of the manager's role, too.

[bjorn_skurj]

anyone wanna talk about the Padres or Mariners rather than the Red Sox/White Sox/Cubs/Yankees?

 

i hear that Ichiro is a good player...

Ichiro had a funny quote about Fukudome.

 

NEW YORK - Seattle's Ichiro Suzuki and the Cubs' Kosuke Fukudome are the only Japanese All-Stars this year. And though Suzuki saw Fukudome in spring training, he hasn't kept up with the Cubs outfielder's progress.

 

"I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's been a really tough season for me as an individual and as a team, so I haven't had enough time in my heart to be able to watch other players during the season, especially because he's in another league," Suzuki said through an interpreter.

 

"To be honest, I don't know how he's doing at all in the National League. What I can probably assume is that Lou [Piniella] is complaining to him."

 

And why would Piniella complain to Fukudome?

 

"No matter how well you're playing or how good the team is doing, Lou will complain, no matter what," he said of the former Mariners manager with a grin.

[PigSooie]

Paps went to school in Mississippi. Cut him some slack.

[bobbob1313]

Except most teams don't reserve a valuable roster spot solely for a pinch runner.

 

I would say coming into a tie game or a game where you are down by 1 in the 8th takes a lot more "guts" or whatever word you want to use than getting 3 outs before giving up 3 runs.

 

The misuse of a team's relief ace has made the closer's role overvalued. Jon Papelbon isn't a closer because he's mentally more tough than any of the other pitchers on their roster. It's because he either doesn't have the stamina or just simply isn't good enough to start.

 

I would argue the 9th inning when you are up is one of the least important times in a baseball game. Sure, blowing a 3 run lead in the ninth sucks, but that's only because of how rare it is.

 

If Papelbon played in any other market but Boston, he would be JJ Putz, or Joakim Soria, or Joe Nathan, or Bobby Jenks or any of the other handful of closers who are basically just as good but either don't get as much press or don't get as many save chances.

 

In closing, the closer, and specifically the save statistic, are two of the most overrated things in baseball, right next to small, untalented white guys and anyone who plays in the minors for either New York team or Boston.

 

Ichiro had a funny quote about Fukudome.

 

NEW YORK - Seattle's Ichiro Suzuki and the Cubs' Kosuke Fukudome are the only Japanese All-Stars this year. And though Suzuki saw Fukudome in spring training, he hasn't kept up with the Cubs outfielder's progress.

 

"I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's been a really tough season for me as an individual and as a team, so I haven't had enough time in my heart to be able to watch other players during the season, especially because he's in another league," Suzuki said through an interpreter.

 

"To be honest, I don't know how he's doing at all in the National League. What I can probably assume is that Lou [Piniella] is complaining to him."

 

And why would Piniella complain to Fukudome?

 

"No matter how well you're playing or how good the team is doing, Lou will complain, no matter what," he said of the former Mariners manager with a grin.

 

I don't like Ichiro as a player (Another overrated guy), but he's always good for a good quote. Seems like a very intelligent, funny guy.

[Lammycat]

Except most teams don't reserve a valuable roster spot solely for a pinch runner.

 

I would say coming into a tie game or a game where you are down by 1 in the 8th takes a lot more "guts" or whatever word you want to use than getting 3 outs before giving up 3 runs.

 

The misuse of a team's relief ace has made the closer's role overvalued. Jon Papelbon isn't a closer because he's mentally more tough than any of the other pitchers on their roster. It's because he either doesn't have the stamina or just simply isn't good enough to start.

 

I would argue the 9th inning when you are up is one of the least important times in a baseball game. Sure, blowing a 3 run lead in the ninth sucks, but that's only because of how rare it is.

 

If Papelbon played in any other market but Boston, he would be JJ Putz, or Joakim Soria, or Joe Nathan, or Bobby Jenks or any of the other handful of closers who are basically just as good but either don't get as much press or don't get as many save chances.

I don't think a closer (Papelbon or otherwise) has more "guts," just that the mind-set is different than when starting or relieving in the middle of a game. There's a different pressure on a closer. Not more pressure, necessarily, just different. There's a mental make-up to be a starter, a reliever, a closer that varies from role to role, is all.

 

I disagree that, in this case, Papelbon isn't good enough to start. He was tagged to be a starter but turned it down/requested to close. Somebody like Smoltz is a rarity in that he can fulfill either role effectively, but pitchers adapt to the roles assigned them through conditioning. Joba's doing it now and plenty of others could make the switch with conditioning.

 

I also think that when a game is on the line, i.e. late 8th-9th inning, that pressure mounts more so than a guy coming into a game in the 6th/7th. How can it not? Those three + outs before three or less runs become more important than another pitcher getting three outs in the 7th.

 

I agree that the use of talent as a closer is misdirected, to an extent. I don't think that should have bearing on the guy slotted to close out games, though.

 

If Papelbon played for a shittier team he probably wouldn't be getting as many save opportunities, sure. Would he be a worse pitcher because of that? I don't think so. If he's "overrated" in Boston he'd be overrated in Seattle or Cleveland or wherever, as well. I don't fault Papelbon for the role he's cast in nor the players that surround him. I do think he's at the top of the league in how he does his job and fulfills his role, though. I'd suppose he would be wherever he played because he gets those three *meaningless*/weak outs consistently.

 

Guys have a lot of trouble hitting his pitches in their last-ditch efforts at the end of a close game. That makes him a rated closer.

[bobbob1313]

Oh come on, he absolutely gets more press and credit from the media because he plays in a big market. Nobody would know who he is if he played in Seattle or Cleveland, and you know it.

 

Papelbon would be a starter if he was good enough to be one. In his case, it has nothing to do with having stamina and everything to do with not having a legitimate 3rd pitch. You can be a dominant closer with 2 pitches, but unless those pitches are absolutely unhittable (RJ's fastball and slider), you can't start. Papelbon has 2 pretty good pitches, but neither of them is overwhelming.

 

And are guys born with this supposed mental make up to close? It is easy to assign it to that, because it is a visibly high stress situation, but the closer is rarely getting the most crucial outs. You misinterpretted what I said w/r/t the importance of late inning outs. Late inning outs are more important, but not when you are up by 3. The closer should be saved for the highest leverage situations, which are usually the 8th or 9th when you are tied or down by a run. Again, most of the time, any pitcher can record 3 outs without giving up 2, 3 or 4 runs.

[sweetheart-mine]

in one recent year (i think 2003?), the sox tried having no regular closer due to advice and statistics from bill james. it didn't go too well. the bullpen was not reliable in later innings, and i think this has been true both in earlier years and in later years, a notable exception being okajima last year. the sox bullpen, much of the time, makes a lot of fans very nervous, for good reason. but i agree that the closer is under-used.

[jenbobblehead]

Oh come on, he absolutely gets more press and credit from the media because he plays in a big market. Nobody would know who he is if he played in Seattle or Cleveland, and you know it.

 

Have you heard of this guy who hits a lot of home runs and is recovering from being a major drug addict and basically God and his Grandma saved him?

[MrRain422]

I'm sure there are a few closers who could be adaquate starters, but not dominant. In general, if a guy is good enough, you want to give him as many innings as you can, so you don't put him in the bullpen.

 

Rivera is notable mostly for his longetivity -- he completely washed out as a starter earlier in his career. A lot of guys make that transition from starting to relieving effectively, even to the closer role, but most of them don't stay dominant in that role for very long, as Mo has.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Well, in my eyes "not really that good" implies that he is overrated, mostly because he just doesn't throw very many innings.

 

He's a good closer. He's not miles ahead of the average closer, though. He racks up saves because his teams win 100 games per year, but he's pitching 60 innings per year.

 

He is also mostly overrated by virtue of being a closer. It is the single most overrated "position" in the game.

 

After watching C. J. Wilson try to close out games for half a season, I would like to state that a killer closer is the NOT overrated.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Have you heard of this guy who hits a lot of home runs and is recovering from being a major drug addict and basically God and his Grandma saved him?

 

So you're gonna take shots at Hamilton?

 

The guy was a fucking junkie who was heading for a very nasty end and he turned his life around. Sorry if you aren't inspired by such a story.

[myboyblue]

So you're gonna take shots at Hamilton?

 

The guy was a fucking junkie who was heading for a very nasty end and he turned his life around. Sorry if you aren't inspired by such a story.

 

I didn't read it as she was taking shots at him.

[MrRain422]

After watching C. J. Wilson try to close out games for half a season, I would like to state that a killer closer is the NOT overrated.

 

Thank you very much.

 

They should try using someone else there then. 90% of relievers could be effective as closers, in the way that closers are used nowadays. I always laugh when a team trades a hot prospect or something for a relief pitcher who might get them one more win than if they'd just given their setup man a shot at it.

[cryptique]

I didn't read it as she was taking shots at him.

More like taking shots at the media that feel compelled to mention his troubled past every time he's in the batter's box.

 

It's a fantastic story ... but we've all heard it 5,000 times now. Can we just let the guy play baseball?

[Lammycat]

Oh come on, he absolutely gets more press and credit from the media because he plays in a big market. Nobody would know who he is if he played in Seattle or Cleveland, and you know it.

 

Papelbon would be a starter if he was good enough to be one. In his case, it has nothing to do with having stamina and everything to do with not having a legitimate 3rd pitch. You can be a dominant closer with 2 pitches, but unless those pitches are absolutely unhittable (RJ's fastball and slider), you can't start. Papelbon has 2 pretty good pitches, but neither of them is overwhelming.

 

And are guys born with this supposed mental make up to close? It is easy to assign it to that, because it is a visibly high stress situation, but the closer is rarely getting the most crucial outs. You misinterpretted what I said w/r/t the importance of late inning outs. Late inning outs are more important, but not when you are up by 3. The closer should be saved for the highest leverage situations, which are usually the 8th or 9th when you are tied or down by a run. Again, most of the time, any pitcher can record 3 outs without giving up 2, 3 or 4 runs.

Getting more press because of where he plays means greater scrutiny, too. Like Rivera in NY. The credit Papelbon gets, in comparison to JJ Putz, etc., is merited through his ability to shut down the side with great consistency. Just like Rivera. Do you honestly think no one would know who Rivera is if he played in a smaller market? His post-season record would be a lot thinner, I'd imagine, but he'd still have the ability to consistently shut down the opponent with his cut-fastball when given the opportunity.

 

Again, Papelbon was slated to be a starter after he was used (mostly) in 2005 as a middle reliever. He's got his dominant fast ball, a splitter, and throws in a change up now and then. Both his fast ball and his splitter are, indeed, overwhelming pitches. He can be hit from time to time, but his era and saves/opportunities speak for themselves.

 

And, it's not uncommon for a player being groomed for a particular role to be taught alternative pitches. Problems with his shoulder was one reason Papelbon was getting prepared for the transition to starter but ultimately he was cast into the closer's role because Foulke couldn't get the job done.

 

No, guys are not born with the mental make up to close. They acquire it through being groomed for the role. Just like a starter. I also disagree that any pitcher can come in to get the last 3+ outs when the team is up by 1, 2 or 3 runs. Saving a Rivera or a Papelbon or a Putz, etc. for situations when the team is down a run or tied ("highest leverage") , usually in the 8th or 9th, may be an ideal spot for them to utilize their skills- but, assuming they do their job and stop the bleeding/hold the line, and their team can put up a run or more, then you have a less effective pitcher coming in to close the game for the win. I agree you want your best reliever coming into a game when it's close like that, but I'm not convinced that the alternative of having a weaker pitcher trying to wrap up a game when your team is up by 1, 2 runs is a safer option....

 

Regardless, the command Papelbon has on his pitches is the reason he is a rated and above-average closer. Not because he plays in BOS, not because the media coddles him (please), not because he can't hack it as a starter, and not because he's an outlandish freak who celebrates with a jig after a big win.

 

He fulfills his role better and more effectively than the average closer does.

[Sir Stewart]

Trevor Hoffman is generally regarded as the best closer in the game, and yet - who gives a crap about the Padres?

[MrRain422]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Trevor Hoffman is/was the best closer in the game, which I guess shows that most people deep down know how silly the save stat is.

 

But yeah, if he had played in NY or Boston I probably would have heard him called that.

[Sir Stewart]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Trevor Hoffman is/was the best closer in the game

[sweetheart-mine]

Oh come on, he absolutely gets more press and credit from the media because he plays in a big market. Nobody would know who he is if he played in Seattle or Cleveland, and you know it.

well, here's one example and no doubt there are more: did you know who b.j. ryan was in 2004-2005 when he closed for baltimore? he was definitely well known. and he was terrifying.

[MrRain422]

 

Huh, never saw that. Cool.

[PigSooie]

I know I have a couple of half assed closers on my fantasy baseball team that drive me nuts.

[Sir Stewart]

I lived out there at the time that was published so maybe the label stuck with me to the point I say "generally regarded."

[Lammycat]

I'm sorry, but I get a chuckle out of this: nobody from team shows for A-Rod's ASG party-

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post/Te...y?urn=mlb,94236

[caliber66]

closer = pinch runner is the new oil = heroin [/el famous]

[Lammycat]

closer = pinch runner is the new oil = heroin [/el famous]

Hey now, I didn't say closer=pinch runner. Just that it could be considered "over rated" in respect to the conversation about the job of closers.