Brand Spanking New Election Thread

[Sal]

Well, I never said I would vote for Obama the person.

 

I've gone over why I don't agree with his politics, or at least, why I don't agree enough with them to justify voting for what I consider to be a two party system that doesn't represent the people.

 

 

What would you consider representing the people?

[Party @ the Moontower]

Well, I never said I would vote for Obama the person.

 

I've gone over why I don't agree with his politics, or at least, why I don't agree enough with them to justify voting for what I consider to be a two party system that doesn't represent the people.

 

 

How does Obama not represent the people? Name 3 important areas, and show links to facts please.

 

And, if your waiting for more than a 2-party system to represent blah blah,or whatever you say, I guess your never voting. As BS as it is, it's the way it is. Don't tell me not voting is somehow noble and justified here. Just what magic man or woman are you wanting to lead this country?

[Party @ the Moontower]

Hi Sal. We are boycotting Palin and taking back Alaska tonight...watching the 1st season of Northern Exposure till we fall asleep.

[Sal]

How does Obama not represent the people? Name 3 important areas, and show links to facts please.

 

And, if your waiting for more than a 2-party system to represent blah blah,or whatever you say, I guess your never voting. As BS as it is, it's the way it is. Don't tell me not voting is somehow noble and justified here. Just what magic man or woman are you wanting to lead this country?

 

 

Isn't Palin the magic woman?

 

Anybody who saw the interview with Charlie Gibson and thinks she is ready to be VP needs to have their head examined.

[jenbobblehead]

Well, I never said I would vote for Obama the person.

 

I've gone over why I don't agree with his politics, or at least, why I don't agree enough with them to justify voting for what I consider to be a two party system that doesn't represent the people.

I agree that by the time we get to this point, the politicians are mere caricatures. But what I do, is think beyond the candidate, to who the candidate will surround himself with, who will be advising the candidate. I am afraid I simply don't trust that McCain won't be surrounded by the same people who advise George Bush. That won't work for me. McCain's choice of a running mate really solidified my belief that he 1. doesn't care about women, is not a "maverick or a reformer" and that it will be business as usual except maybe Roe v Wade will be finally overturned and the courts will leave it up to states to decide.

 

Not voting is not a good solution, in my opinion. In fact, I find it rather cowardly. People who don't vote just don't want to take any responsibility for the direction the country is going in, otherwise why else wouldn't they at least make a choice? Someone is gonna represent you, why not pick the one that is least likely to offend your sensibilities? The one you can work with? This is what we have. Not voting isn't going to change the two party system. Not participating has never been a way to create change.

[Sal]

Hi Sal. We are boycotting Palin and taking back Alaska tonight...watching the 1st season of Northern Exposure till we fall asleep.

 

 

I would have a hard time watching that show now. All I would be able to hear is her annoying voice.

[bobbob1313]

He won't be able to tell you. Trust me, I've asked.

 

No, you've just willfully ignored it. You have a tendency to do that...

 

How does Obama not represent the people? Name 3 important areas, and show links to facts please.

 

... kind of like here!

 

I said the two party system doesn't represent the people.

[bobbob1313]

I agree that by the time we get to this point, the politicians are mere caricatures. But what I do, is think beyond the candidate, to who the candidate will surround himself with, who will be advising the candidate. I am afraid I simply don't trust that McCain won't be surrounded by the same people who advise George Bush. That won't work for me. McCain's choice of a running mate really solidified my belief that he 1. doesn't care about women, is not a "maverick or a reformer" and that it will be business as usual except maybe Roe v Wade will be finally overturned and the courts will leave it up to states to decide.

 

Not voting is not a good solution, in my opinion. In fact, I find it rather cowardly. People who don't vote just don't want to take any responsibility for the direction the country is going in, otherwise why else wouldn't they at least make a choice? Someone is gonna represent you, why not pick the one that is least likely to offend your sensibilities? The one you can work with? This is what we have. Not voting isn't going to change the two party system. Not participating has never been a way to create change.

 

Would voting for a 3rd party candidate be any better or worse than not voting, or do I have to vote for one of Barack or McCain?

 

That's my problem with it. In my eyes, not voting and voting for a 3rd party are pretty much the same thing, and I can't bring myself to vote for either one of the two major parties. I don't think Obama or McCain are going to bring about the type of changes I would like to see, so I can't vote for either one.

[jenbobblehead]

Would voting for a 3rd party candidate be any better or worse than not voting, or do I have to vote for one of Barack or McCain?

 

That's my problem with it. In my eyes, not voting and voting for a 3rd party are pretty much the same thing, and I can't bring myself to vote for either one of the two major parties. I don't think Obama or McCain are going to bring about the type of changes I would like to see, so I can't vote for either one.

I've been avoiding these threads, bobbob so forgive me if i'm asking stuff you've already gone over, but what kind of changes would you like to see? And I agree that the race for the presidency is not where the real change is going to happen (well, i suppose bad change will happen but i digress) but it is in the senate and the house, because a president can get nothing done (well, except skirt the constitution on a regular basis) without a willing congress...

[Party @ the Moontower]

I am afraid I simply don't trust that McCain won't be surrounded by the same people who advise George Bush. That won't work for me.

 

 

Karl Rove Advising McCain Campaign

[Sal]

No, you've just willfully ignored it. You have a tendency to do that...

 

 

 

... kind of like here!

 

I said the two party system doesn't represent the people.

 

 

So anyone who is either a Democrat or a Republican is not worthy of a vote? Are you active in a 3rd party? Do you attend local Democratic or Republican Party meetings and make your voice heard? If not, than you have no reason to gripe. You are pretty much just sitting on the sidelines waiting for things to change.

 

 

Karl Rove Advising McCain Campaign

 

 

Rove is a parasite.

[jenbobblehead]

BTW you about not voting, or voting for a third party candidate and I think about how John McCain has changed over the past several years. He really was a guy who shook up the other republicans 8 years ago. He was outspoken and I know a lot of democrats who supported him in the run up to the 2004 election. But look at him now. He is pandering to the evangelicals, he's changed his position on Roe v Wade, he has moved away from the center and farther to the right? And why? Because he was pressured to do so. Because powerful lobby groups got to him. So, those who truly want a candidate to change, to stand for them, make it happen.

[lost highway]

I don't live my life and make my decisions with near the amount of certainty you expressed in that post. That's how I can not feel so bad about not voting for either.

 

I hype up the rhetoric sometimes. But you are obviously engaged and passionate enough on the topic to discuss it at great length on this very board. It takes no fundamental certainty that a vote in either direction could effect a lot of things. This isn't vote for strawberry, or chocolate when you don't want a milkshake. Something is going to happen to a lot of people in this world as a result of everyone's vote or lack thereof.

 

Abstaining from the vote isn't protest, it's silent acceptance.

[lost highway]

a quick aside:

 

While I obviously take great issue with bobbob's political stance I must commend his character. He has patiently argued with a number of people on here telling him he's wrong and I haven't seen a cheap shot yet.

[bobbob1313]

I've been avoiding these threads, bobbob so forgive me if i'm asking stuff you've already gone over, but what kind of changes would you like to see? And I agree that the race for the presidency is not where the real change is going to happen (well, i suppose bad change will happen but i digress) but it is in the senate and the house, because a president can get nothing done (well, except skirt the constitution on a regular basis) without a willing congress...

 

Well, to be honest, the issues that are big in this election aren't ones that I feel all that strongly about. They are kind of open ended, and I don't think a black and white stance is necessarily the right one to take with most of them.

 

The type of changes I'd like to see are:

 

A move towards changing the way elections are run (This is a big one for me, though I don't know how it will happen). Public financing to level the playing field for the Kucinich's and Paul's against the Clinton and McCain's of the world.

Term limits in the house and senate.

Less draconian laws across the board (from the PATRIOT Act down to anti-smoking and anti-drug laws)

 

I dunno. Those are the best ones I can come up with right now, not much of a platform. Really, the biggest thing for me is more accountability to the people. I have a hard time coming up with how I feel definitively on most issues, because I have a tendency to look at both sides too much. But I think I just live in a dreamworld, because other people feel so strongly about their issues that they are willing to put up with the problems I see in government for their pet issues.

 

I dunno. I have trouble articulating my thoughts sometimes because I tend to think in the abstract

 

BTW you about not voting, or voting for a third party candidate and I think about how John McCain has changed over the past several years. He really was a guy who shook up the other republicans 8 years ago. He was outspoken and I know a lot of democrats who supported him in the run up to the 2004 election. But look at him now. He is pandering to the evangelicals, he's changed his position on Roe v Wade, he has moved away from the center and farther to the right? And why? Because he was pressured to do so. Because powerful lobby groups got to him. So, those who truly want a candidate to change, to stand for them, make it happen.

 

That's my problem with the whole system, you cannot be who you truly are within the confines of our system, so someone like McCain who I used to respect or Obama who I do respect somewhat, have to become something else in order to get to where they are.

 

Abstaining from the vote isn't protest, it's silent acceptance.

 

I disagree. Sorry

[Party @ the Moontower]

The voters brain

 

[Beltmann]

Would voting for a 3rd party candidate be any better or worse than not voting?

Not voting is cynical; voting third-party is optimistic.

 

Let me recycle some things I've said before:

 

The two major parties are mostly interested in maintaining power, and the nefarious part is that, with the media as their accomplice, they have designed and perpetuated a system that essentially ensures there can be no serious challenge to their power. I very much favor a dismantling of that system.

 

Still, I don't get the "let's not vote" movement. I understand the idea of making a statement, but how will that message actually be received? Since it won

[Sal]

The voters brain

 

 

 

That's classic. Homer is the best.

[austrya]

BTW you about not voting, or voting for a third party candidate and I think about how John McCain has changed over the past several years. He really was a guy who shook up the other republicans 8 years ago. He was outspoken and I know a lot of democrats who supported him in the run up to the 2004 election. But look at him now. He is pandering to the evangelicals, he's changed his position on Roe v Wade, he has moved away from the center and farther to the right? And why? Because he was pressured to do so. Because powerful lobby groups got to him. So, those who truly want a candidate to change, to stand for them, make it happen.

 

 

Not too long ago (back when people were deciding to run) I was talking to my son about the candidates and I told him that I really liked Obama and hoped that he would run for president. I also told him that I didn't think McCain was a bad choice for the republicans and if there HAD to be a republican president, he wouldn't be all that bad, after all, he was different from the rest of the republicans. Wow, has he changed since then even.

[Party @ the Moontower]

The two major parties are mostly interested in maintaining power, and the nefarious part is that, with the media as their accomplice, they have designed and perpetuated a system that essentially ensures there can be no serious challenge to their power. I very much favor a dismantling of that system.

 

Truth is, not voting is an empty gesture that will do absolutely nothing to truly challenge the two-party system. That choice is cynical, not optimistic.

 

[bobbob1313]

Not voting is cynical; voting third-party is optimistic.

 

Let me recycle some things I've said before:

 

The two major parties are mostly interested in maintaining power, and the nefarious part is that, with the media as their accomplice, they have designed and perpetuated a system that essentially ensures there can be no serious challenge to their power. I very much favor a dismantling of that system.

 

Still, I don't get the "let's not vote" movement. I understand the idea of making a statement, but how will that message actually be received? Since it won

[Party @ the Moontower]

I didn't think McCain was a bad choice for the republicans and if there HAD to be a republican president, he wouldn't be all that bad, after all, he was different from the rest of the republicans. Wow, has he changed since then even.

 

 

I just wish those voting for the old McCain could see that!

[lost highway]

I'll tell you how that message (the non-vote) is received: some jackass is gonna laugh all the way to the bank.

 

Young people have been turning out in droves to not vote for all of the years I've been able to. There hasn't been a whole lot of politicians saying "Gosh, those idealistic kids ain't voting. Let's change the system!"

 

The push for a third party is so tough. I admire your courage. I tossed a vote Nadar's way in 2000 and have regretted it since. I could see doing it again, but I need a little better political scenario, federally speaking before I want to work on the partisan stuff.

[Sal]

I just wish those voting for the old McCain could see that!

 

 

Most of them aren't even voting for McCain now, they are voting for Palin.

[austrya]

I just wish those voting for the old McCain could see that!

 

No doubt.