The end is near!

[JUDE]

VOTE JUDE/Jules 08' (R*)

 

* the party of Radiohead

 

- I was not consulted on this.

 

Much like Palin, I've gone rogue on certain issues.

[jenbobblehead]

Um, yeah I grasp the concept.

 

So to answer my question I should vote for McCain, yes? You know to do the smart thing.

Oh yes, sorry. If McCain's platform is more closely aligned to your beliefs, and yes, you should vote for McCain. I mean, it is your future too. If you truly believe that McCain is better than the other guy, then McCain is who you vote for.

[ikol]

I disagree with the premise that voting 3rd party in Presidential elections does not result any real change. While it's true that your candidate isn't likely to win, many of the policy positions that led to vote for him/her could potentially win. For example, if enough conservatives voted Libertarian causing the Republican candidate to lose, then it might cause more Republicans to take Libertarian positions. That being said, I still voted McCain, but that was mainly because we face a Democratic President with an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress. I would rather have the government divided between 2 parties than run by one party with which I disagree on most issues.

[Sir Stewart]

I disagree with the premise that voting 3rd party in Presidential elections does not result any real change. While it's true that your candidate isn't likely to win, many of the policy positions that led to vote for him/her could potentially win. For example, if enough conservatives voted Libertarian causing the Republican candidate to lose, then it might cause more Republicans to take Libertarian positions. That being said, I still voted McCain, but that was mainly because we face a Democratic President with an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress. I would rather have the government divided between 2 parties than run by one party with which I disagree on most issues.

 

ARE YOU CRAZY?!?!?

[Guest Jules]

Does anyone know when It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown is airing this year?

[MrRain422]

Pretty sure Radiohead would not be on board for that. Just sayin'.

[sweetheart-mine]

QUOTE (sweetheart-mine @ Oct 23 2008, 09:21 AM) *

my first vote went to mcgovern in 1972. wow, was that a sorry night in my apartment. crybaby.gif drinkingbeer.gif frusty.gif

 

 

Were you in MA by chance? At least you would've had company.

 

no, in albany n.y., having just moved into my first apartment after college. it was a genuine thrill to pull the lever that day, for the first time . . . now i usually go to vote with huge anxiety! haven't had too many lucky election nights.

[fatheadfred]

I started to get the feeling that the campaign excitement is going lead us to a huge let down once it is decided. We won't have all the campaign hoopla, we'll just be left with an enormous task of digging out of the hole we are in.

 

And holy dog crap, y'all seen the polls today. I was thinking Big 10 was wack but Quinnipiac is 2 pts. higher Big 10 poll in Ohio. Gaaawlyeee:

 

Ohio Big10 Battleground Obama 53, McCain 41 Obama +12

Pennsylvania Big10 Battleground Obama 52, McCain 41 Obama +11

Michigan Big10 Battleground Obama 58, McCain 36 Obama +22

Minnesota Big10 Battleground Obama 57, McCain 38 Obama +19

Wisconsin Big10 Battleground Obama 53, McCain 40 Obama +13

Iowa Big10 Battleground Obama 52, McCain 39 Obama +13

Indiana Big10 Battleground McCain 41, Obama 51 Obama +10

Illinois Big10 Battleground Obama 61, McCain 32 Obama +29

Pennsylvania Morning Call Obama 52, McCain 42 Obama +10

Ohio Quinnipiac Obama 52, McCain 38 Obama +14

Florida Quinnipiac Obama 49, McCain 44 Obama +5

Pennsylvania Quinnipiac Obama 53, McCain 40 Obama +13

California PPIC Obama 56, McCain 33 Obama +23

[ikol]

ARE YOU CRAZY?!?!?

 

 

No.

[Sir Stewart]

I hope my humor came across there - just want to make sure.

[fatheadfred]

I would rather have the government divided between 2 parties than run by one party with which I disagree on most issues.

No kidding, look what the Repubs did with it. Checks and balances, pffftt.

[Sir Stewart]

Does anyone know when It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown is airing this year?

 

It's scheduled to air Tuesday 10/28 at 8pm eastern on CBS, America's favorite network. sorry - ABC, the umm...America's most tolerated network.

[ikol]

I hope my humor came across there - just want to make sure.

 

I generally assume people are joking. It keeps me sane.

 

No kidding, look what the Repubs did with it. Checks and balances, pffftt.

 

There's not gonna be a lot of checks and balances if Obama is elected.

[quarter23cd]

I voted!

 

 

(can I be excused from this thread now? )

 

 

 

edit: just kidding, I'm still not going anywhere

[Edie]

There's not gonna be a lot of checks and balances if Obama is elected.

 

Are you assuming a filibuster-proof 60 senators for the dems as well?

[watch me fall]

Wow, Mr. Mountain Bed must be doing some serious campaigning in Indiana!

[Basil II]

Elections used to mean democratic process......now it's big busness.....*

 

 

 

-Robert

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*naivete margin of error +/- 11%

 

Wow, Mr. Mountain Bed must be doing some serious campaigning in Indiana!

 

 

go scott go!!!!

 

 

-Robert

[sweetheart-mine]

I met Rich Whitney and a bunch of the IL Green's through my daughter (formerly Tweedys Gurl) one night and it was facinating as well. I am not much of an organizational persion, although I have spent much of my life attending meetings. This was a social gathering and it was as you describe, people who consider themselves outsiders and odd balls. Whitney's wife kept expressing opinions that she kept acting like she was the only one who had them, when in fact they were pretty common leftish opinions and not that unusual. In order to put together an IL slate of candidates (by this time the election was long over) they apparently took all comers, which included at least one person they couldn't stand and apparently didn't agree with for one state office.

 

For me this entire third party thing (I am particularly disappointed with Nader who I think is a jerk...) has little to do with organizing to get unmet governmental needs met and more about self agrandizement. The newest New Yorker has several interesting articles about Nader and the Bob Bart running for president with the Libertarians (he was a very conservative Republican initially.) We really need to go back to the earliest part of the 20th century to find real third parties that made any difference (I keep mentioning Debs since he got a million votes while in jail.....history buffs can chime in on this...).

 

If I am cranky about anything (as myboyblue has accused me of...) it is clearly that I think people want to find fault with Barack so they can justify voting for some wacko third party and totally waste there vote (and maybe put Sarah Palin in the White House...) rather than understand how unique a moment this is.

 

My story about visiting Trinity UCC Church this past week has been largely ignored, but I have to tell you it is very moving sitting and talking with African Americans (even these folks who could be really pissed off at Barack for dissing his former church), but actually they also know this is an historic election and that this is the time. For some of us here not to recognize that and bad mouth Barack only proves that some folks (like members of the Green Party) can't see beyond the end of their noses (an expression my mother used to use...). Sure I would like to vote Socialist or Workers Party or some such entity that may represent more closely my personal ideology than the Democrats do, but they don't exist and they haven't existed in my lifetime. So we need to support the party closest to our basic philosophy and support it to the exent we feel able and certainly give it the only thing they really ask for, our vote, not waste another opportunity and end up with another Bush, McCain, Palin to suffer through again...

 

LouieB

 

well, i understand this, i really do. i'm an idealist who has learned over many elections to vote as a realist -- with the hardest lesson being my vote for nader in 2000 (who i agree has turned out to be a jerk). i'm sure i was half thinking "what's the difference." we've certainly learned the difference, and it was gigantic. although not particularly a gore fan, i'm pretty sure that, had the court awarded the election to gore, we would not have invaded and occupied iraq, most of the rest of the world would still respect us, there wouldn't have been "gore tax cuts for the wealthy," and we'd be way farther along on climate-change/energy issues. i will never waste my vote again. there are plenty of other ways to express my ideals and work toward them, including actively protesting & pushing democrats to do the right thing when cowardice sets in, as we've seen all too often these past eight years. (now and then that actually works, i've learned firsthand.)

 

did the people you met with at trinity express any upset (or lingering upset) at all with obama for leaving or for anything he said? or did they just get right over it and move on because they realized, as you say, that this is truly a unique moment? and what work do you do, if you don't mind saying?

[sweetheart-mine]

I started to get the feeling that the campaign excitement is going lead us to a huge let down once it is decided. We won't have all the campaign hoopla, we'll just be left with an enormous task of digging out of the hole we are in.

 

And holy dog crap, y'all seen the polls today. I was thinking Big 10 was wack but Quinnipiac is 2 pts. higher Big 10 poll in Ohio. Gaaawlyeee:

 

Ohio Big10 Battleground Obama 53, McCain 41 Obama +12

Pennsylvania Big10 Battleground Obama 52, McCain 41 Obama +11

Michigan Big10 Battleground Obama 58, McCain 36 Obama +22

Minnesota Big10 Battleground Obama 57, McCain 38 Obama +19

Wisconsin Big10 Battleground Obama 53, McCain 40 Obama +13

Iowa Big10 Battleground Obama 52, McCain 39 Obama +13

Indiana Big10 Battleground McCain 41, Obama 51 Obama +10

Illinois Big10 Battleground Obama 61, McCain 32 Obama +29

Pennsylvania Morning Call Obama 52, McCain 42 Obama +10

Ohio Quinnipiac Obama 52, McCain 38 Obama +14

Florida Quinnipiac Obama 49, McCain 44 Obama +5

Pennsylvania Quinnipiac Obama 53, McCain 40 Obama +13

California PPIC Obama 56, McCain 33 Obama +23

 

you just made my day.

[sweetheart-mine]

I voted!

 

 

(can I be excused from this thread now? )

 

 

 

edit: just kidding, I'm still not going anywhere

 

you'd better not!

[viatroy]

from Nicholas Kristof in the NYT

 

In his endorsement, Mr. Powell added that an Obama election

[LouieB]

I have no idea what that means, but at this point instead of voting for the mediocrity that is our two party system of pandering

to lobbyists and special interest groups I'm going to be a selfish bastard and vote for a third party.

Obama is NOT mediocre is he??

 

 

Just the points the framers of the Constitution had in mind, I'd imagine: berated into voting for one of the two Big parties.

 

I didn't say who I was voting for, just making a point that I think it's 100% acceptable (nay, constitutional) for people to vote for whomever they feel meets their needs best. Period.

 

You make some decent points Lou, but fail to see the bigger picture, I believe. If a person can live with their personal vote and is comfortable that they voted for their personal best choice candidate, whether that takes away from another person's "Party" choice or not, then that's all that matters. Talk about selfish.

The framers?? That was a very long time ago.

 

Actually I do see the big picture, that IS my point. Vote for whomever you want to, but only one person is going to occupy the Oval Office. I am not saying you can't vote for whomever you want. Go for it, I have said that before, but it doesn't stop me from thinking it is kinda dumb that after 8 years of George W Bush anyone would want to put President Palin in there just because Ralph Nader is correct 100% of the time and Barack isn't. But hey go for it. Maybe we CAN survive 4 or eight years of President Palin, what do I know??

 

 

It would be great if you could vote for the person who best represents your point of view, and of course people can do that, but it is actually smarter and better in the long run if you vote for someone who 1. has a chance of being elected and 2. is better than the other guy running. Because those really are your choices for the future. Throwing your vote to unelectable third party candidates hasn't made third party candidacy any more viable, except on the very very local level. It really doesn't send a message to the two big parties that they need to change. Is it a great system? No, but it is the system we have for 2008 and your choices are McCain and Obama, realistically.

Someone her gets it...thanks jen...!!!

 

I think voting for third party candidates in local elections is usually great, and in Presidential elections its fine if that's what you really want to do, I just think that people are fooling themselves if they think that voting for a third party candidate in this election is going to make a bit of difference. None of the third party candidates are really forcing any issues onto the table very successfully, and the stakes this time are too high to let a Republican win (IMO of course). In other elections, with lower stakes, and with third party candidates who actually stand for something, then sure, go for it.

I have voted third party as well as I carefully explained in more than one post. I am all in favor of third parties if they have their shit together and even if they don't. I have voted that way (and not voted at all, which is also a choice) many times. But this is an historic and important election, that is unless you really want McCain to win, then don't vote for Obama.

 

Senator Obama is not a bad guy.

Exactly.....

 

LouieB

[ikol]

Are you assuming a filibuster-proof 60 senators for the dems as well?

 

I'm not really sure about that, just that it's going to be a majority in both houses. But even with filibustering capabilities, that's not much checks and balances.

 

But this is an historic and important election, that is unless you really want McCain to win, then don't vote for Obama.

 

That's what they say about every election.

[LouieB]

ARE YOU CRAZY?!?!?

Nah, he's just Ikol.....Most of those on the right, including ikol and company think Barack is a fucking Commie. All the hate spewed out at Barack by the opposition comes from a very hateful and distrustful place and one where the idea that one party has control is too upsetting unless of course that control is in the hands of a Republican or someone more right than that.

 

I voted!

 

 

(can I be excused from this thread now? )

 

 

 

edit: just kidding, I'm still not going anywhere

As soon as I log off here I am going to vote too.

 

 

well, i understand this, i really do. i'm an idealist who has learned over many elections to vote as a realist -- with the hardest lesson being my vote for nader in 2000 (who i agree has turned out to be a jerk). i'm sure i was half thinking "what's the difference." we've certainly learned the difference, and it was gigantic. although not particularly a gore fan, i'm pretty sure that, had the court awarded the election to gore, we would not have invaded and occupied iraq, most of the rest of the world would still respect us, there wouldn't have been "gore tax cuts for the wealthy," and we'd be way farther along on climate-change/energy issues. i will never waste my vote again. there are plenty of other ways to express my ideals and work toward them, including actively protesting & pushing democrats to do the right thing when cowardice sets in, as we've seen all too often these past eight years. (now and then that actually works, i've learned firsthand.)

 

did the people you met with at trinity express any upset (or lingering upset) at all with obama for leaving or for anything he said? or did they just get right over it and move on because they realized, as you say, that this is truly a unique moment? and what work do you do, if you don't mind saying?

Wow...a real conversation here, with an actual reasonable and thoughtful person..I am touched...seriously. Maybe we will meet some day in real life (I have met hundreds of VCers actually) and we can talk about this...

 

Thanks for your support...

 

Actually I didn't press the issue about Barack leaving the church under duress. It didn't seem appropriate and I didn't want to leave on that note; mostly I wanted them to know that I felt badly he had gotten so much flack for being associated with them and that some of us understood the context underwhich Rev. Wright made some of those comments even if we (I actually) didn't agree with all of them. What else can one say really. I brought up my point about the Bill Ayers unrepentant terrorist and John McCain the unrepentant bomber of North Vietnam and said that point isn't understood by lots of people, but the Trinity folks seemed to understand. Ultimately I got the feeling they still felt alot of love for Barack and were sad about the way things went down. We all waxed nostalgic about what an historic moment this is, one we never thought we would see (a man of color becoming president of the US of A), etc. I figured it was better to dwell on the good stuff since the church had been through some very rough times. Luckily as I said, their review went very well and the Wrights daughter, the director of the program, felt she learned alot by me being there. That was enough for me. In a world in tumoil over all of our differences, bridging any small gap is important to me.

 

What I do is very boring...if you are interested PM me.

 

LouieB

[Sir Stewart]

Nah, he's just Ikol.....Most of those on the right, including ikol and company think Barack is a fucking Commie. All the hate spewed out at Barack by the opposition comes from a very hateful and distrustful place and one where the idea that one party has control is too upsetting unless of course that control is in the hands of a Republican or someone more right than that.

I was only joking - ikol is one of the most reasonable voices here (not that that's any great feat). I'm a huge Obama supporter, but I can understand people being skeptical of his potential, or in disagreement with his views.