Artifice Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'm not trolling, but I felt compelled to say it. Ashes, for all its slick production and musicianship, is pretty boring, outside of the anecodtal/personal stuff. I've been a fan since I first heard AM. I bought Being There the day it was released. I did the UT back catalogue. Etc. But see my signature. SBS bored me (outside of You Are My Face). Ashes did too. I've heard the new record twice and I really liked Bull Black Nova, but I havent formed a final opinion (out of fear of being let down?). But back to Ashes - please don't kill me for it, but half the band is overplaying, especially Nels. There are too many notes being played instead of just what the songs need. I've heard that somewhere before, but I really get it when I watch the band play now. These guys play like very technical musicians, not songwriters. Posting something like that on a fan board is either trolling or suicide, and probably all that novel. But I am disappointed in my fandom right now, and I can't figure out if its me or them. I'll understand if I get ignored or harsh responses. Won't bother me. It's a pretty selfish rant about falling out of love with your favorite band. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dunnright00 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Wilco is a band. A band made up of musicians. Musicians, who are people just like you and me. Some of the stuff you like. Some of the stuff I like. It doesn't have to please everyone all the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dude Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 There are too many notes being played instead of just what the songs need. This reminds me of the scene in Amadeus: Emperor Joseph II: Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect. Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nodep5 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 This lineup is walking a very fine line between keeping the focus on the songs vs. focus on muscianship. I tend to loathe amazing technical musicians, so having Nels in my favorite band is a bit hard for me, hell Glenn for that matter. However as long as Tweedy is ther ringleader, I think we will always get more emotion than technique. That being said, the beginning of Ashes with the Ashes soundcheck shows how great this current lineup can be. That is just beautiful. Unfortunately, their version of Kingpin shows us the oppositte. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Since this is the same band that recently recorded SBS and KTV, I think anyone going into the DVD expecting the musicianship/arrangements to sound different than those records kind of had his/her head up his/her rear. Which isn't at all to say I'm not an advanced student in the school of Wishful Thinking, myself. That being said, I thought Ashes had a ton of potential to be a compelling concert DVD or tour documentary, and it was so over-the-place/artsy that it was really neither. And kind of boring, yes. But I've got IATTBYH, Sunken Treasure, Shake It Off and dozens of DVD Project stuff to enjoy, and the bra scene at the end almost made the preceding hour and a half worth it. Not quite on the level of the Vicodin rx after the dental work, but a good, hearty chortle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cooperissup3r Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 someone please tell me why being really really really awesome at your instrument somehow makes people like the music less? it's not like they're playing a friggin' Yngwie Malmsteen song or something.. also, Kingpin on there is really fun. it seems a lot of people feel betrayed (for lack of a better word) that tweedy doesn't want to work with guys who don't like to practice at being good musicians. i dunno. griping about how you "loathe amazing technical musicians" always bothers me. especially with guys like Nels and Glenn, who put just as much emotion into playing the songs as they do proficiency. Loathing amazing technical musicians such as Nels or Glenn would make a lot more sense if they were eating up songs, playing over vocals, over other members. But they seem, to me at least, to be trying to compliment the song in any way possible (especially Glenn). the guy who plays drums in my little jam group will tell you that playing less is not something many drummers are really fans of. note: all of that said, I think I like the 4 piece 2002ish band the most. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Loathing amazing technical musicians such as Nels or Glenn would make a lot more sense if they were eating up songs, playing over vocals, over other members. But they seem, to me at least, to be trying to compliment the song in any way possible (especially Glenn). the guy who plays drums in my little jam group will tell you that playing less is not something many drummers are really fans of. This line-up of Wilco occassionally sounds to me like six groomsmen simultaneously trying to toast the happy couple. Complimenting is great, if your timing is also impeccable. Six people complimenting a song all at the same time and the room gets crowded quickly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cooperissup3r Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 This line-up of Wilco occassionally sounds to me like six groomsmen simultaneously trying to toast the happy couple. Complimenting is great, if your timing is also impeccable. Six people complimenting a song all at the same time and the room gets crowded quickly. i guess i just don't hear that. i'd say 9/10 songs they do sound pretty spot on to what is happening on the album. some are obviously a bit different, but i just don't hear these things people talk about. i guess beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mpolak21 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I understand what you're saying, but has anything with the six-piece really changed since 2004? Had you seen this lineup in concert before and also had these same feelings? Did you not know what Wilco circa-2008 (when it was filmed) sounds like? There are times when it feels like to my ears that they've got one instrument too many on some of their arrangements. I could certainly do without the funk keyboards on I'm The Man Who Loves You, the electric guitar on War on War, and I still prefer the boots from 2001-2003 with Jeff as the lead guitarist on most of the tracks. It's just generally difficult I would presume to get six different incredible musicians equal time. I mean a guy as talented as Pat Sansone is often playing the third guitar or the second keyboard part on a lot of their songs. But everytime I've seen this incarnation of the band live they've completely blown me away, and I've never been thinking about any of these issues. --Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sweet Papa Crimbo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'm not trolling, but I felt compelled to say it. Ashes, for all its slick production and musicianship, is pretty boring, outside of the anecodtal/personal stuff. I've been a fan since I first heard AM. I bought Being There the day it was released. I did the UT back catalogue. Etc. But see my signature. SBS bored me (outside of You Are My Face). Ashes did too. I've heard the new record twice and I really liked Bull Black Nova, but I havent formed a final opinion (out of fear of being let down?). But back to Ashes - please don't kill me for it, but half the band is overplaying, especially Nels. There are too many notes being played instead of just what the songs need. I've heard that somewhere before, but I really get it when I watch the band play now. These guys play like very technical musicians, not songwriters. Posting something like that on a fan board is either trolling or suicide, and probably all that novel. But I am disappointed in my fandom right now, and I can't figure out if its me or them. I'll understand if I get ignored or harsh responses. Won't bother me. It's a pretty selfish rant about falling out of love with your favorite band. I get bullshit from old fans from damn near everything that happens! [Laughs] Some people, I swear to God, just stick around for the sake of having a dissenting opinion and thoroughly enjoy being disheartened by us! So yeah, there probably are people waiting around for us to make a country record we never made. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 SBS is better than your record. (maybe that should be my signature) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IcculusDC Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 This lineup is walking a very fine line between keeping the focus on the songs vs. focus on muscianship. I tend to loathe amazing technical musicians, so having Nels in my favorite band is a bit hard for me, hell Glenn for that matter. However as long as Tweedy is ther ringleader, I think we will always get more emotion than technique. That being said, the beginning of Ashes with the Ashes soundcheck shows how great this current lineup can be. That is just beautiful. Unfortunately, their version of Kingpin shows us the oppositte. Agree wholeheartedly. The two soundchecks (Ashes and Wishful Thinking) are spectacular. Most of the rest is just -- ehhh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
So Long Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Nels does overplay from time to time, but this lineup of Wilco is what I call the greatest hits lineup. They have an amazing ability to play every genre Wilco has gone through seamlessly. So overall, I think a little noodling is forgivable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigWheeledWagon Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I was just looking for that quotation to post in reply -- well done. I really don't understand why folks take it so personally when a band they love changes. Let's say you absolutely hate "Wilco (The Album)." Does that make the albums by Wilco that you love any less great? There's a lot of talk these days about how one of the biggest problem with certain younger generations is a certain feeling of entitlement to, well, pretty much everything. It seems that certain Wilco fans feel that they are entitled to a new Wilco album every 2-3 years that they love as much as their favorite Wilco album. I also suspect that some of the disappointment is just a sense of melancholy about getting older and not being able to relive those experiences from younger days when they discovered Wilco. Note: for some reason the quotation isn't showing up, but I'm referring to Crow Daddy Magnus's quoting of Jeff's recent interview: "I get bullshit from old fans from damn near everything that happens! [Laughs] Some people, I swear to God, just stick around for the sake of having a dissenting opinion and thoroughly enjoy being disheartened by us! So yeah, there probably are people waiting around for us to make a country record we never made." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nodep5 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 someone please tell me why being really really really awesome at your instrument somehow makes people like the music less? it's not like they're playing a friggin' Yngwie Malmsteen song or something.. also, Kingpin on there is really fun. it seems a lot of people feel betrayed (for lack of a better word) that tweedy doesn't want to work with guys who don't like to practice at being good musicians. i dunno. griping about how you "loathe amazing technical musicians" always bothers me. especially with guys like Nels and Glenn, who put just as much emotion into playing the songs as they do proficiency. Loathing amazing technical musicians such as Nels or Glenn would make a lot more sense if they were eating up songs, playing over vocals, over other members. But they seem, to me at least, to be trying to compliment the song in any way possible (especially Glenn). the guy who plays drums in my little jam group will tell you that playing less is not something many drummers are really fans of. note: all of that said, I think I like the 4 piece 2002ish band the most. ok, loathe should read, "not my cup of tea". It is just personal preference. Eric Clapton bores, Neil Pert bores me, etc. I just personally have always valued originality and creativity over technical mastery. Hell, there is probably someone on my block who can shred like there is no tomorrow, but that doesn't make their music interesting. And I should state that I don't think Wilco is this way on album, more of a live thing. But the albums are little more reserved with this lineup, maybe more cerebral (which I think could be a byproduct of this issue we are discussing. Hey I can appreciate Yes and what is going on musically, but that type of thing would never move me in huge way like Hayden, Jeff Tweedy or Neil Young Bob Dylan, etc (people who make more with less) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tongue-tied Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I understand what you're saying, but has anything with the six-piece really changed since 2004? Yes. Very yes, I'd say. I've seen them at least once every year from 04-08. In some ways they've been getting better, but in other areas the sound has become cluttered. I think they practiced restraint much more before SBS than after. I like them all, but six is a bit of a crowd. In response to the original post, I still haven't seen Ashes , and I haven't heard Wilco (The Album) :o, but I listened to SBS today and i think it's a great album. The only thing it suffers from are a few so-so songs (by Tweedy standards). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mpolak21 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yes. Very yes, I'd say. I've seen them at least once every year from 04-08. In some ways they've been getting better, but in other areas the sound has become cluttered. I think they practiced restraint much more before SBS than after. I like them all, but six is a bit of a crowd. Upon further review of the 2004 ACL performance on You Tube, I see what you mean. I also haven't seen Ashes yet, but I did watch the 2003 Soundstage DVD for the upteenth time yesterday because of my man crush on Leroy Bach. --Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Basil II Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks to all previously who had the guts to post in this thread.......all of you have hit on the nagging sense of where Wilco has been......and where it's going. Wilco is Jeff Tweedy........no malice intended. I get the sense that since Jeff got "well"......the creative sand in the ointment....(i.e. forceful input by others has been replaced by a sense of "people not wanting to lose their gig" so they play along as opposed to contributing forcefully what the lyrics need in it's musical muscle ......that requires independent thought from all band members.Playing to Jeff is fine.....if it works. Playing to challenge (the band as a whole) ultimately satisfies fans so much more........ -Robert Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jokin' dealer Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Wow! Some great posts here that echo many of my thoughts. And frankly, I'm surprised they haven't been met with more malice. In my opinion, the quote from the interview is being used a little out of context. Jeff was referring to those "fans" who have chastised him from moving away from alt. country. The initial post was about being disappointed in the DVD for a number of reasons, and yes, one of which was the direction of the music. I don't think that "bullshit" is being spewed. I didn't hear "Jeff Tweedy has abandoned his roots so I effing hate Wilco now!" I was disappointed with Sky Blue Sky because nothing on it grabs me. That doesn't make me any less of a fan than those of you who maybe won't admit that a "clunker" is possible from Mr. Tweedy. But music is what it is. It either appeals to you or it doesn't. I agree there are many times that the 6 piece does sound way too "busy". I'm not so sure "techinical musicians" is the way I would've put it. I'm of the belief that you don't necessarily need the most skilled musicians and a great singer to have a great band. For example just because Nels Cline is a great guitar player, his style may not fit as well into the whole as Jay Bennett's did. (This is not a Nels vs. Jay debate, you could interchange Glen/Ken or even Leroy/Mikael). And Wilco is Jeff Tweedy, no question. Bottom line.....I love Wilco. I thought the DVD was great and I enjoy Wilco(TA). Do I have a favorite "era". Sure, but I do with every band I like that's had some longevity. We all do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Artifice Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Just thought I'd clear the air a bit. - I'm remorseful, not angry. - I'm definitely not in that bitter alt.country fanbase. I'm more of the pop/rock/folk type. I've really enjoyed the progression of the band up until recently- I chuckled at that quote though. Well played.- I'd buy any of these guys a beer and feel awful saying anything negative about any of them, or as a whole- I just don't enjoy the busy style of much of the recent stuff. I guess I didn't realize how much it bugged me until I watched Ashes. Maybe I was in denial- I'm sure a hundred other people have said it before, but it reminds me of something I read Ray Davies say about how he enjoyed Elliott Smith's drumming - awful paraphrasing here - but I believe he said that Elliott played what a song needs and nothing else. he didn't play drums like a musician. That always resonated with me because of how talented of a musician Elliott was. He put the songs ahead of his technical ability and just tried to create the sounds the song needed. I guess its a case of personal taste - I enjoy songcraft more than musicianship. I got bigger goosebumps watching Jay Bennett gesture over the late song effect during Cars Can't Escape in IATTBYH than I do watching Nels shred (though I still think Nels is cool, and damnit I just did another Jay/Nels comparison). That's enough babbling from me. Thanks for the thoughtful and insulting replies. Good read. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I haven't seen Ashes yet, so I can't comment on it. Of all the videos/TV appearances I've seen of this lineup, I think the Burn to Shine performance of Muzzle of Bees is the best example of how a six person band can operate without any clutter or overplaying. It's beautiful how little each person does in that performance. That's a rare thing with any band. Sometimes concert videos are just plain boring, and can often be annoying. I remember being so bored and annoyed (thanks to all the inside jokes and apparent boredness and annoyance of the people in the film) by the "1991: The Year Punk Broke" video that it turned me away from every one of the bands featured in it for years (actually, until about a month ago when my interest in Sonic Youth returned). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
junkiesmile Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Just thought I'd clear the air a bit. - I'm remorseful, not angry. - I'm definitely not in that bitter alt.country fanbase. I'm more of the pop/rock/folk type. I've really enjoyed the progression of the band up until recently- I chuckled at that quote though. Well played.- I'd buy any of these guys a beer and feel awful saying anything negative about any of them, or as a whole- I just don't enjoy the busy style of much of the recent stuff. I guess I didn't realize how much it bugged me until I watched Ashes. Maybe I was in denial- I'm sure a hundred other people have said it before, but it reminds me of something I read Ray Davies say about how he enjoyed Elliott Smith's drumming - awful paraphrasing here - but I believe he said that Elliott played what a song needs and nothing else. he didn't play drums like a musician. That always resonated with me because of how talented of a musician Elliott was. He put the songs ahead of his technical ability and just tried to create the sounds the song needed. I guess its a case of personal taste - I enjoy songcraft more than musicianship. I got bigger goosebumps watching Jay Bennett gesture over the late song effect during Cars Can't Escape in IATTBYH than I do watching Nels shred (though I still think Nels is cool, and damnit I just did another Jay/Nels comparison). That's enough babbling from me. Thanks for the thoughtful and insulting replies. Good read.I thought Glenn said that about Elliott. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ryan Kemp Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Yeah...I kinda like the band the way they are. I don't get where all the hate comes from. That dude was right about people feeling entitled to shit and such. But yeah...if you don't like the band than I don't know man...not much I can do. People critic everything nowadays like they do, but I'm sure if they put out stuff out there they'd hate it for it to get shit on. What I don't get is how you can come off sounding like you want the band to play a certain way that pleases you. I pay my hard earned money to see this band and I like what I get. Done is done. Band is amazing as is..no need to sit around and nit pick little things other wise you'll hate everything. Touche... I'm outski, Ryan Kemp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
standenup Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 like a couple people have said, wilco is jeff. i dont' think the lineup has really changed the sound of the band as much as jeff has just wanted the sound to change. back before he went to rehab he was writing darker and more complex stuff but it had so much emotion in it and it was brilliant. now i feel like he's just simplified everything. i like wta and sbs, but i most definitely prefer previous albums Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Speed Racer Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 like a couple people have said, wilco is jeff. i dont' think the lineup has really changed the sound of the band as much as jeff has just wanted the sound to change. back before he went to rehab he was writing darker and more complex stuff but it had so much emotion in it and it was brilliant. now i feel like he's just simplified everything. i like wta and sbs, but i most definitely prefer previous albums The lyrics for Impossible Germany and SBS (the song) were written pre-Ghost, the lyrics for Hate it Here were written pre-Anodyne. Either Way, You & I and On & On are no more direct than Pieholden, Say You Miss Me, What's the World Got In Store, or Someone Else's Song. The songs are just-as - if not more - musically complex as songs pre-Ghost, and the ones that aren't are just as straightforward. The darker songs are still pretty damned dark, and the bright songs still have murky corners. If anything, the songs are a LOT less self-absorbed - well, except when they are (SBS, Shake it Off, BBN). In short, the sound has changed - it's not really more or less complex, more or less dark, just the sound has changed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.