Arizona mass shooting

[Guest Speed Racer]

People with mental illnesses that manifest violently hurt people. There's no way around it. He could have drowned a barrel of puppies, killed his parents with toothpicks, bombed a daycare or this. He chose this. Did something he saw on television inspire it? Quite possibly. Insanity, violence and mass killings existed long before our current mode of political rhetoric.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

And yet a sick mind can certainly be influenced by a sickness in society. Whatever drove him, it's a tragic situation.

 

It's symptomatic of our society in turmoil and decline.

 

I know it's trite to site song lyrics at times like this, but this one contiunes to hit home:

 

Well they blew the horns

And the walls came down

They'd all been warned

And the walls came down

They stood there laughing

They're not laughing anymore

The walls came down

 

Sanctuary fades

congregation splits

Nightly military raids

The congregation splits

It's a song of assassins

Ringin' in your ears

We got terrorists thinking

Playing on fears

 

Well they blew the horns

And the walls came down

They'd all been warned

But the walls came down

I don't think there are any Russians

There ain't no Yanks

Just corporate criminals

playin' with tanks

[Guest Speed Racer]

How is our society in decline? I see a lot of positive social change in tandem with the dark patches.

[Dreamin']

It's disappointing to see mental illness used as an explanation for violent behaviour. This is a myth!

 

The psychology of violence is complex, but social dynamics often do play a roll. This tragic event appears to be somewhat unique in that it was both an assassination attempt and a mass shooting. Unfortunately, there will likely be copycats (as we have seen in school settings) in the months and years ahead.

 

Peace.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I deleted an earlier post just now that some may have seen, because I'm still very angry about this incident and I went off half-cocked about something.

 

I mention this because, regardless of what the shooter's motivations turn out to be in this case, my point in that now-deleted post, and the point the Keith Olbermann makes, is no less true whether the shooter was motivated by Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck or anyone else, or whether he was simply a lunatic who decided entirely on his own to attack a congresswoman. That point is this:

 

The incendiary rhetoric surrounding politics has gotten WAY out of hand, and that unless something is done to bring hostilities back to a mild simmer instead of the current rolling boil, there WILL be violent incidents inspired by that rhetoric. Let's face it, there already have been.

 

This incident may not be among them -- that remains to be seen. But even if it's proven to be completely unrelated, it's still a fact that both sides need to cool it and we need to return to respectful disagreement instead of hatred and violent rhetoric. This is a democracy, and we are bound to disagree on things, but that does not give anyone the right to advocate violence, explicitly or implicitly, nor to actually commit violence.

 

Olbermann named names on the right because those are the people who most prominently spread such vitriol. If there were a liberal counterpart to Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin -- someone who has the platform of a national media program watched or listened to by millions who makes winking references to violence when speaking of political opponents -- then it would be important to call out that person too. I can't think of any such person on the left -- not Olbermann, not anyone. And so it may seem to some that Olbermann was trying to turn this back on his political opponents, but look at the facts: right-wingers dominate such programs, and liberals are virtually unseen/unheard. It's pretty clear where the most violent rhetoric is coming from, and it's not from the gun-control crowd.

 

Blaming Sarah Palin and Glen Beck for this is akin to blaming J. D. Salinger for Mark David Champan and Marilyn Manson for Columbine. If he had decided to hate John McCain and blow his head off would you blame Rachel Madow and Keef Olberman?

 

It's knee jerk sanctimoniousness.

 

This was a lone man with severe emotional and psychological issues who needed someone to step in and intervene. He wasn't a tea party partisan.

 

He was a very ill young man who fell through the cracks of a society where people and their potential are wasted (squandered) every day.

 

To many people these days live life like they were starring in their own movie. Solipsism, Nihilism, Narcissism are all run amok. It's all too much.

[Guest Speed Racer]

It's disappointing to see mental illness used as an explanation for violent behaviour. This is a myth!

 

That document explains that not all mentally ill people are violent. Of course not. But this person WAS violent - we already know that - AND by all accounts has been out of his gourd for a long time.

 

Socializing does play a role of course - he might not have used a gun if he had not been raised in a pro-firearm environment; he might not have gone to a political rally if not for the tense climate in his district. But he was a violent man with impaired judgment, and would have acted out in some way.

 

Politics did not cause his violence; the man was ill. He could have been violent AND mentally ill, but you would be hard pressed to find an individual who cannot agree that the mental illness did not improve his ability to control his violence.

[kidsmoke]

It's disappointing to see mental illness used as an explanation for violent behaviour. This is a myth!

 

The psychology of violence is complex, but social dynamics often do play a roll. This tragic event appears to be somewhat unique in that it was both an assassination attempt and a mass shooting. Unfortunately, there will likely be copycats (as we have seen in school settings) in the months and years ahead.

 

Peace.

 

Judy, I was hoping you would weigh in. The studies you cited are fascinating and I want to read the second one in depth. Thank you.

[Dreamin']

Judy, I was hoping you would weigh in. The studies you cited are fascinating and I want to read the second one in depth. Thank you.

The "empty vessel" idea is helpful for understanding someone who may be on a pathway to violence (and how to intervene). I'm no expert, just trying to wrap my head around these senseless tragedies, like everyone else.

[The High Heat]

How does it come about that he legally purchased his gun after being kicked out of college for psychological reasons, including the involvement of campus police in at least one of his incidents at school?

[Spawn's dad]

Campus Police

 

[Good Old Neon]

Calling this man a Republican or a conservative and blaming it on that would be like saying he did this because he had 'x' color eyes. He was mentally ill; regardless of what his supposed accomplice did or did not do, this kid carried out these acts as a sick individual, and not anything else.

 

This could, of course, be true. But at the same time, unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, we don't know if he is truly mentally ill, and if so, the severity of his illness, his level of competence, etc. It has been reported that he used drugs, they too could be responisble for his erratic behaviour. He certainly proved that he was lucid enough to purchase a gun, and plan his assination attempt in advance - by perhaps as many as three years.

[ikol]

This could, of course, be true. But at the same time, unless you have evidence to prove otherwise, we don't know if he is truly mentally ill, and if so, the severity of his illness, his level of competence, etc. It has been reported that he used drugs, they too could be responisble for his erratic behaviour. He certainly proved that he was lucid enough to purchase a gun, and plan his assination attempt in advance - by perhaps as many as three years.

 

So since we don't know for sure that he was mentally ill, we should assume it was Glen Beck and Sarah Palin's fault in the meantime?

[Doug C]

The only person at fault for this murderous act is Loughner. He did it. That said, it is still irresponsible for Palin to do the 'crosshairs' thing, for Giffords opponent to have the M16 'help take Giffords out of office' rally, Helms (I think) saying some nonsense about Clinton being shot if he went to North Carolina, and radio and tv pundits with their bombastic violent imagery, etc.

 

The only reason that they do these kinds of things is to get 'ratings', if you will. They are all intelligent enough to know that that type of imagery and rhetoric ratchets everything up several notches. Are they responsible for how their words and images may be interpreted by an unbalanced person? No but that doesn't absolve them from being disingenuous sacks of shit when they say, "That isn't what I meant" and "I condemn this person", etc., etc. Who will be the first among them to say, "I will no longer make these kinds of hyperbolic statements. I am not responsible for these violent actions but I also want no connection to them in any way. I urge all of my fellow politicians, commentators, etc. to join me in a pledge of responsibility".

 

Would acts like these happen even if the political landscape were devoid of that type of nonsense?, of course. But influential people should use their influence responsibly.

[Good Old Neon]

So since we don't know for sure that he was mentally ill, we should assume it was Glen Beck and Sarah Palin's fault in the meantime?

 

In a word, no.

 

Though, I find it interesting that Palin acted awfully quickly to pull down from her websites any reference to the now infamous crosshairs map. I guess she and her camp feel that in light of the shootings, maybe it’s a little inappropriate. Though, that she now all of a sudden finds her own rhetoric insensitive and inappropriate strikes me as funny, as if it wasn’t before, the shit that comes out of her mouth on a pretty much daily basis.

[cryptique]

So since we don't know for sure that he was mentally ill, we should assume it was Glen Beck and Sarah Palin's fault in the meantime?

Nope. It is true that automatically connecting this guy to the likes of Beck and Palin is a knee-jerk reaction. I am obviously guilty of this in this case (though I've been trying to back down from my initial comments).

 

However, as a (possibly) separate issue, we definitely should be searching for ways to dial back the hateful rhetoric that spews from the mouths of people such as Beck and Palin -- on both sides. (Though really, there's far more of it on the "right" -- at least in the mass media. And the rhetoric from the right tends to be more violent -- the lefties are probably more pacifist in nature anyway.)

 

Even if there's no connection to this specific incident, it doesn't take a lot of observational skills to see that such speech (from Beck, Palin, et al) has made a significant contribution to the atmosphere of polarization and political hatred in this country, and it's also not difficult to predict that such an atmosphere will result in bloodshed, if it hasn't already.

 

Should that be a separate thread? That remains to be seen. I remain unconvinced that there was no connection.

 

In the meantime, to those who embrace the "he was mentally ill" storyline, that reaction is no less knee-jerk than my initial reaction. The truth is that we simply don't know ... yet, anyway. This kid clearly planned this attack well in advance. I haven't seen much evidence of actual mental illness to this point.

 

How does it come about that he legally purchased his gun after being kicked out of college for psychological reasons, including the involvement of campus police in at least one of his incidents at school?

The gun laws in Arizona are unlike those in virtually any other state.

[Guest Speed Racer]

However, as a (possibly) separate issue, we definitely should be searching for ways to dial back the hateful rhetoric that spews from the mouths of people such as Beck and Palin -- on both sides.

 

So this is the thread in which we discuss apples and oranges.

 

Someone who does something like that is out of their gourd. Normal people - even normal mentally ill people, as Dreamin' aptly pointed out - don't do things like that. The television doesn't make them do things, and the political rhetoric in this country has gone to pot, and I'm not wearing any shoes. Those three things aren't related.

[M. (hristine]

So this is the thread in which we discuss apples and oranges.

 

Someone who does something like that is out of their gourd. Normal people - even normal mentally ill people, as Dreamin' aptly pointed out - don't do things like that. The television doesn't make them do things, and the political rhetoric in this country has gone to pot, and I'm not wearing any shoes. Those three things aren't related.

[embiggen]

why can't it be a combination of the two? this mentally ill man could have been influenced by rhetoric that he heard on the news, etc, and thus he decided to carry out these acts.

 

also, has there been any further news on this 50 year old male that they have been looking for? who is he and what was his influence?

 

whether the guy was influenced by the media or not, I believe that this event should open the eyes of those in the public eye and the rhetoric they use in politics. freedom of speech does not come without consequences and there are plenty of impressionable people out there, mentally ill or not.

[M. (hristine]

also, has there been any further news on this 50 year old male that they have been looking for? who is he and what was his influence?

Last I read he is a cab driver who drove the suspect to the scene of the shooting. Yet another shadowy influence.

[Guest Speed Racer]

why can't it be a combination of the two? this mentally ill man could have been influenced by rhetoric that he heard on the news, etc, and thus he decided to carry out these acts.

 

Obviously yes, but that does not mean that the political rhetoric caused the shooting any more than Jodie Foster should bear any responsibility for Reagan's shooting.

[Spawn's dad]

Last I read he is a cabtaxi driver who drove the suspect to the scene of the shooting. Yet another shadowy influence.

 

[M. (hristine]

Oooo, a cab taxi driver and Jodi Foster in one fell swoop. Nice.

[Moss]

I certainly don't know anything about this guy and agree it's too soon to blame incendiary rhetoric. But the change in debate has gone from "I'm right your wrong" to "I'm right and your evil", and that certainly could help the unhinged justify their actions.

[Good Old Neon]

So this is the thread in which we discuss apples and oranges.

 

Someone who does something like that is out of their gourd. Normal people - even normal mentally ill people, as Dreamin' aptly pointed out - don't do things like that. The television doesn't make them do things, and the political rhetoric in this country has gone to pot, and I'm not wearing any shoes. Those three things aren't related.

 

Again – you have zero proof of this. I won’t pretend to know what his true motives were, but for someone who keeps going out of the way to dismiss anyone who proposes to know, well, you seem pretty damn convinced this is all a result of some sort of mental illness – which, amounts to little more than speculation. For all we know, the dude is hyper-sane and his odd behavior and writings were little more than an act, so that, assuming he survived, he could plead insanity.

[Doug C]

I apologize for saying 'disingenuous sacks of shit' in my earlier post. After reading the following on NPR, I respectfully change to lying sacks of shit: Palin aide Rebecca Mansour told conservative radio host Tammy Bruce over the weekend that those weren't targets, they were "a surveyor's symbol."