gogo Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think reproductive rights are purely a symbolic issue for most voters, at the national level. Much like gay marriage, at this point, these are issues that really are being decided or legislated at a state level. There is probably not going to be much movement on either of these issues in congress, and the presidential candidates' positions are little more than a way of reaching out to and relating to their bases on a "moral" level. But whether or not Roe v. Wade is overturned, states are going to continue to chip away at access to abortion. And whether or not DOMA is ever repealed, states are going to continue to decide on gay marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedling Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Yep Biden is a complete idiot. Who can barely dress himself, let alone put two words to together with out causing a national or international kerfuffle. The best the Dems can hope for is that he doesn't shit himself and throw it at the moderator. Or Joe Biden is a competent legislator with over 36 years of experience, 17 years as chair or ranking member on the Judiciary Committee and the same for Foreign relations from 1997 to 2008. It is too bad the right wing media some how see it fit to completely denigrate such an accomplished man. Not saying he is perfect and sometimes can put his foot in his mouth but he is a smart and accomplished politician. I think Ryan will have to beyond his A game to even coming close to Biden tonight.Seriously? Weren't you the one that mentioned pointing a finger and having 3 back at you? Are you telling me the liberal media doesn't go out and denegrate accomplished republican men? Or is Biden above even that!?I don't care if the guys signature is on the Declaration of Independence, his "puh y'all back in chains" comment is some of the lowest, unprofessional race-baiting I can remember witnessing. He's a douche. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think reproductive rights are purely a symbolic issue for most voters, at the national level. Much like gay marriage, at this point, these are issues that really are being decided or legislated at a state level. There is probably not going to be much movement on either of these issues in congress, and the presidential candidates' positions are little more than a way of reaching out to and relating to their bases on a "moral" level. But whether or not Roe v. Wade is overturned, states are going to continue to chip away at access to abortion. And whether or not DOMA is ever repealed, states are going to continue to decide on gay marriage. Whomever is the next president is, he will appoint at minimum 1 justice and maybe up to 3. With the court being constantly 5-4, in most cases, this would swing the court dramatically. Also this president will appoint several other federal judges, and if the past is any indication, they will end up deciding the fate of the laws passed by the states. Congress won't be able to pass laws on these issues, but the current ones on the books will be decided by the judges the president appoints. The shaping of the judiciary is probably the most important thing that this next president will do and will shape our country for the next 50 years. That is why I feel it is so important to know where a candidate stands on issues, understand that he has the convictions to stand for what is right. Not to pander to a group to seem more electable and then in less than 24 back off on those very same statements. Link to post Share on other sites
gogo Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I don't disagree about the judiciary appointments, they're certainly an important consideration. I'm just saying that these issues (specifically reproductive rights and gay marriage) are being strongly hacked at on the state level, and will continue to be a battleground there. Yes, many of these state laws will be contested and come before federal judges, but for probably the next 20 years at least, the states will have their way, in one way or another, on these issues. I think gay marriage will eventually become a non-issue, there seems to be an obvious trend on that one. But no matter who is appointing judges, nationwide access to legal abortions will continue to be patchwork at best. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Seriously? Weren't you the one that mentioned pointing a finger and having 3 back at you? Are you telling me the liberal media doesn't go out and denegrate accomplished republican men? Or is Biden above even that!?I don't care if the guys signature is on the Declaration of Independence, his "puh y'all back in chains" comment is some of the lowest, unprofessional race-baiting I can remember witnessing. He's a douche. Are you on about the chained comment again? What a complete non-story, ginned up but the right. If you hear some people on the right talk about it, Biden was in blackface doing a minstrel show at the time of the speech. You see it as race baiting, I see it as the use of colorful language and the right trying point out racial intent when there was none. I am not going to change you mind, you aren't going to change mine. I have nothing more to say about it. So regardless of what you think about Joe Biden (douche race-baiter or not) the right plays Joe for a fool and incompetent. His service to this country has shown the opposite. I have never said the "liberal media" (and I hope by liberal media you mean MSNBC, and progressive talk radio and not the mainstream media because liberal bias in the mainstream media is BS) has not denigrated Republicans before. They do it all the time. It drives me nuts. It is unfair to the person they are doing to and unfair to those who listen/watch their shows. Often times both sides show a lack of respect for those who serve our country. I may disagree with many politicians, I may vehemently hate they things they do and they say, but I will never disrespect an elected official in the way that has been done by the Right Wing Media. Like it or not Joe Biden is the Vice President of the United States, using terms like Vice President "Bite-me" and such is not the way you treat him. Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 I don't buy into the "stay respectful with your language when it comes to elected officials" bit. I have always had some choice words about Bush. But the fact is, those words aren't very useful to my argument. The fascinating thing about Biden, is the media has cooked his story- along with his tendency for gaffes- such that most people don't realize what an intelligent and accomplished politician he is. Yet again why I am going to be fascinated with this debate: which side of Biden's character will prevail for the camera. Link to post Share on other sites
gogo Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I agree. I love the idea of gaffe-prone, loose-cannon Biden. I want to see him go nuts, a little bit. But most every time I've actually heard him speak, I think he's composed and articulate. The worry before the Palin debate was whether he'd come across as a bully, but he threaded the needle on that one really well, in terms of presenting himself as a much better candidate, without ever really speaking down to her. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I don't buy into the "stay respectful with your language when it comes to elected officials" bit. I have always had some choice words about Bush. But the fact is, those words aren't very useful to my argument. The fascinating thing about Biden, is the media has cooked his story- along with his tendency for gaffes- such that most people don't realize what an intelligent and accomplished politician he is. Yet again why I am going to be fascinated with this debate: which side of Biden's character will prevail for the camera.Comes with being veep. For example, Quayle wasn't bright, but he was using the spelling provided by a teacher when he misspelled potato(e) in a classroom photo op. He was derided mercilessly for that when it should have instigated a discussion about the quality of public education. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Yeah no one ever disrespected Bush. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Yeah no one ever disrespected Bush. I never did and it bothered me when people did. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Biden is awfully defensive. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 People on the interwebs say he's doing we'll. I think he's cantankerous. But what do I know? I didn't think Obama stunk last week. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 People on the interwebs say he's doing we'll. I think he's cantankerous. But what do I know? I didn't think Obama stunk last week. He's not doing bad, but cantankerous is a good word. The smirking and smiling are very off-putting. But I guess that's just Biden. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 People on the interwebs say he's doing we'll. I think he's cantankerous. But what do I know? I didn't think Obama stunk last week. He needed to be a bit cantankerous. He needed to call out the bull shit. He reminded me of Ron Santo doing color for cubs games. If you are a cub fan you know what I mean Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jules Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Ryan called out the bullshit too, but didn't huff and puff and smirk while doing it. Link to post Share on other sites
Tweedling Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Biden was too arrogant. Ryan was too thirsty. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Both sides will argue they won. However what you really need to watch is the moderator blame to tell who really lost. With the Obama Romney debate it was the left hammering on JIm Lehrer. Well see who goes after Raddatz. Though my sound bite summation: Biden helped Obama more than Ryan helped Romney. Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 That moderator was great. She didn't let either candidate launch off a platitude without some real factual defense. That seemed to put Ryan in a corner several times. I thought Biden came out a bit dickish, but like he knew what he was talking about.Ryan came off pretentious dickish, like he was desperate. It was like watching a Junior in a liberal arts and sciences bachelor program hungrily telling his uncle how much better he could fix the world, and his uncle keeps dialing him back "Well that might not actually work son, it's not that simple. Here's what you don't know about this:" Link to post Share on other sites
remphish1 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 My favorite part of the debate was at the end. After the debate was official over. The families came up to greet Biden and Ryan. Ryan's kids climbed in the chairs and pretended to debate. It was a cute unscripted moment..Ryan tried to cajole them out of the seats. For whatever reason that made me smile. Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 My favorite part of the debate was at the end. After the debate was official over. The families came up to greet Biden and Ryan. Ryan's kids climbed in the chairs and pretended to debate. It was a cute unscripted moment..Ryan tried to cajole them out of the seats. For whatever reason that made me smile. Come on now, we can't have you humanizing any of these candidates. That goes against all principles of American politics of the last 20 years. Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I love the FiveThirtyEight blog. Always interesting to see how everything is tracking. The way it's going now, it could be an interesting month leading up to the election. Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Come on now, we can't have you humanizing any of these candidates. That goes against all principles of American politics of the last 20 years. The world of politics is so cynical now that I'm very confident in saying that the kids were instructed to do that as part of a ploy to appeal to moms and grandmas. Link to post Share on other sites
Lammycat Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The kids climbing in the seats was scripted, btw. Link to post Share on other sites
jff Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The kids climbing in the seats was scripted, btw. Glad I'm not the only one willing to say it. Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Totally contrived. It also had nothing to do with how this country could be run by either party, not a smart thing to base a decision on. Link to post Share on other sites
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