Presidential Race (Respector Edition)

[uncool2pillow]

Kevin, the system as it is currently set up is doomed to fail. We cannot continue to pay the low rate we're paying and keep paying out retirees as the baby boom retires. You aren't for privatization and I have reservations about that as well, though the long term historical the stock market is up and as people age they generally move from riskier to safer investments.

 

What do we do to save it? Increase the tax rate? Means tests? Increase retirement age?

[lost highway]

Another example of the many things our citizens expect from the government that we are not willing to pay for.

 

Make our military strong? Well that's just red-blooded monster truck American bbq.

Raise taxes on us to pay for it? Big government shenanigans.

Assist the elderly in their retirement? I guess that's nice when I retire.

Raise taxes to pay for it? Socialism.

[calvino]

By way of CNN, below is Romney's 5 point plan to tackle the economy. Nice article. I think we need some new ideas...

 

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/08/15/romney-economy-plan/?iid=HP_LN

 

What is Romney's plan, exactly? He broke it down for Fortune into five categories: (1) Aggressively promote domestic energy development, especially fossil fuels. (2) Expand the market for U.S. goods overseas by negotiating new trade agreements and standing up to China on intellectual-property and currency issues. (3) Improve workforce skills by transferring job-training programs to the states and going after teachers' unions, which, he says, stand in the way of school choice and better instruction. (4) Attack the deficit through budget cuts, not tax increases. And (5), reshape the regulatory climate to "encourage and promote small business" rather than swamp it. That last item covers his most consistent and passionate campaign pledge, the repeal of the Affordable Care Act -- "reshaping health care reform," he says, "by replacing Obamacare with measures that will bring down the cost of health insurance rather than, as Obamacare does, increasing it."

MORE: Is Obama or Romney a better leader? How to judge.

Romney also says he wants to cap federal spending at 20% of GDP (it's 24% now) and work toward a balanced budget -- a worthy goal, but how does he get there? His proposed cuts alone won't do it, not without a big increase in economic activity, but they're worth listing: Obamacare, to start (even though the Congressional Budget Office says that its repeal would add $109 billion to the deficit by 2022). Also federal funding for Amtrak, PBS, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. He would shift responsibility for parts of the social safety net to the states, including Medicaid, housing vouchers, and food stamps; reduce federal employment 10% by attrition; and lower wages and benefits for government workers.

[uncool2pillow]

Another example of the many things our citizens expect from the government that we are not willing to pay for.

 

Make our military strong? Well that's just red-blooded monster truck American bbq.

Raise taxes on us to pay for it? Big government shenanigans.

Assist the elderly in their retirement? I guess that's nice when I retire.

Raise taxes to pay for it? Socialism.

 

Good lord, one cannot enter into a serious discussion w/o throwing around stupid shit like this. Yes, I am a gun toting, tobacky-chewing, flag-waving redneck who wants nothing but a big army, and low taxes for billionaires.

 

Social security is going broke. Raising taxes to pay for it should be on the table, but it's not going to be enough. It's no wonder nothing ever gets done with entitlement reform when even bringing up the subject results in a reply like this.

[Tweedling]

What's wrong with Joe Biden? Seriously, what a douche

[ih8music]

What do we do to save it? Increase the tax rate? Means tests? Increase retirement age?

 

Instead of increasing the tax rate, I think we should raise/remove the cap at which SS taxes apply (currently $110K). In fact, if the cap was eliminated entirely, we might even be able to lower the tax rate and still increase overall revenue.

 

Means testing is an interesting idea but I'm afraid it would encourage the wrong behaviors. If someone is at the borderline of just barely being able to put away some money for retirement, a policy like that would discourage them from saving.

 

Increasing the retirement age, as much as I hate the idea of people having to work into their 70's, seems inevitable. Average life expectancy was 60/65 when the social security program started; we're now at 75/80.

[uncool2pillow]

Means testing is an interesting idea but I'm afraid it would encourage the wrong behaviors. If someone is at the borderline of just barely being able to put away some money for retirement, a policy like that would discourage them from saving.

I agree with this. It may be more reasonable for medicare (make the wealthy pay a premium -- even my 70+, retired, affluent parents think this is reasonable for them) than for social security.

[lost highway]

Good lord, one cannot enter into a serious discussion w/o throwing around stupid shit like this. Yes, I am a gun toting, tobacky-chewing, flag-waving redneck who wants nothing but a big army, and low taxes for billionaires.

 

Social security is going broke. Raising taxes to pay for it should be on the table, but it's not going to be enough. It's no wonder nothing ever gets done with entitlement reform when even bringing up the subject results in a reply like this.

 

Sorry? If reform can not combat a little parody then it's motivations must be feeble.

[lost highway]

What's wrong with Joe Biden? Seriously, what a douche

 

What did he do now?

[uncool2pillow]

1) There was no parody. Just stupid condescending stereotypes.

 

2) If your attempt at parody is all you have, then your arguments must be feeble.

 

What did he do now?

 

Said Romney and Ryan want to put black people in chains.

[lost highway]

Somehow you took my parody as an attack on you. It was not. You are obviously not an idiot. I was merely critiquing a cavalier attitude towards spending in this country that flies in the face of progress. Admittedly it had a straw man element to it, but in my defense I wrote it early in the morning. Here is a look at discretionary spending in the U.S. Federal Budget for 2011. Now, I don't believe this covers Social Security, because it should be non-discretionary. It does paint an interesting picture of what we can do if we move some money around:

 

[uncool2pillow]

Somehow you took my parody as an attack on you. It was not. You are obviously not an idiot. I was merely critiquing a cavalier attitude towards spending in this country that flies in the face of progress. Admittedly it had a straw man element to it, but in my defense I wrote it early in the morning. Here is a look at discretionary spending in the U.S. Federal Budget for 2011. Now, I don't believe this covers Social Security, because it should be non-discretionary. It does paint an interesting picture of what we can do if we move some money around:

 

Since it came right after my post and was on the same topic, it seemed like a direct reply. Sorry if it wasn't intended in the way I took it. I've seen that pie chart before, but you're right. Doesn't include entitlements and we need to look at the whole budget, including entitlements. Further, cutting the military sounds fine, and it might make sense in certain areas. I would like to see military outlays from that chart broken down further to look at weapons expenses, soliders' benefits & salary, etc. It might make cuts there seem not so easy.

[lost highway]

Another relevant graphic:

 

[KevinG]

 

Said Romney and Ryan want to put black people in chains.

 

Yeah not so much.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57493319-503544/joe-biden-clarifies-in-chains-remark/

 

Admittedly it was a stupid thing to say, but it was a misspoken turn of a phrase. Joe is known for those. If you honestly believe that Joe think R&R want to enslave blacks then you are just a plain silly ideologue.

 

But this is what this campaign has turned into, any little thing, any misstep is over blown by the media, internet and the talking heads on TV. Obama is gonna have gaffes, Joe is gonna have gaffes, Mitt is gonna have gaffes. Ryan is not gonna have gaffes, cause he is too dreamy.

[uncool2pillow]

I was being flippant

 

[Tweedling]

 

 

Yeah not so much.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57493319-503544/joe-biden-clarifies-in-chains-remark/

 

Admittedly it was a stupid thing to say, but it was a misspoken turn of a phrase. Joe is known for those. If you honestly believe that Joe think R&R want to enslave blacks then you are just a plain silly ideologue.

 

But this is what this campaign has turned into, any little thing, any misstep is over blown by the media, internet and the talking heads on TV. Obama is gonna have gaffes, Joe is gonna have gaffes, Mitt is gonna have gaffes. Ryan is not gonna have gaffes, cause he is too dreamy.

It was a horrible thing to say. Imagine had the shoe been on the other foot! No one believes they want or are going to try to enslave anyone BUT listen to Joes tone....he is playing to a crowd that was easily half African American (so I've heard) he knew exactly what he was saying and doing. As a conservative with a fairly open mind as well as a long attraction to the Republican party, this pisses me off. We're painted as racists and bigots and that's a buncha horse shit. "....put YALL back in chains." that's pretty damn disgusting and a real low blow. Joe, why don't you tell us what you've done? Quit talking shit on people and talk about you, Joe.

[KevinG]

I was being flippant

 

 

But the larger point is that there are people out there that actually believe that's what Joe meant. I was listening to Rush today (not sure of who his guest host was) but he was going off like it was true, that Joe thinks RR want to enslave all back people. The partisan rhetoric has gotten out of control.

[Winston Legthigh]

The surefire way to make sure social security is not there in 30 years is to "privatize" it or allow people to manage it themselves.

 

So somehow I'm able to do decently with my 401(k) (2008 downturn notwithstanding), but I'm guaranteed to have zero at retirement if I managed my own SS account?

 

How does that work?

 

Current projections have the SS running out at 2037.

[bleedorange]

 

But the larger point is that there are people out there that actually believe that's what Joe meant. I was listening to Rush today (not sure of who his guest host was) but he was going off like it was true, that Joe thinks RR want to enslave all back people. The partisan rhetoric has gotten out of control.

 

Well, all conservatives are racist, right?

[Winston Legthigh]

Well, all conservatives are racist, right?

 

Other way around. All racists are conservative.

[KevinG]

Well, all conservatives are racist, right?

 

This is what got the last thread closed. Do I think all conservatives are racists? No absolutely not. Are there more racists that identify as conservative then that identify as liberal. Yes, yes I do. (when I originally said all conservatives are racists I was trying to make a point about stereotypes, but the thread got closed before I could respond so I let it go.)

 

I honestly think Joe's comments where not meant to describe enslavement of anyone. He was saying that the RR budget wants to unchain (i.e. remove governmental restrictions) on Wall Street and Banks, and chain (or put restrictions) on the middle class by raising taxes and eliminating programs.

 

What Joe said was dumb, but not intended as the GOP wants to be. Words have power and meaning and with our collective history with slavery and treatment of African Americans unfortunately people will read into things that just aren't there. It is a form of political correctness.

 

You may think Joe was calling conservatives racists, or race baiting or whatnot, I happen to think you are wrong. I also think the GOP talking heads are looking for things to complain about, or to be outraged about. There are plenty of things to be upset about, (the pro Obama PAC ad where Romney murders some dude's wife for example, or Romney spreading outright lies when it comes to Obama and welfare.) There are so many important issues out there, if we are worried about who slipped up here or who inadvertently called who a name we aren't going to get anywhere. I wish the talking heads and the campaigns would see it that way too.

 

Both sides are doing this grand job deflecting from their records, it shouldn't be that way.

[KevinG]

So somehow I'm able to do decently with my 401(k) (2008 downturn notwithstanding), but I'm guaranteed to have zero at retirement if I managed my own SS account?

 

How does that work?

 

Current projections have the SS running out at 2037.

 

I am not saying you are guaranteed to have zero in SS if you managed it yourself. But you have to realize there is a possibility of it happening and if that happened to a lot it would be disastrous. Right now you will have social security when you retire (we both could find articles stating each of our opinions, I am going to say it is solvent you can say it will be gone).

 

I will say it again and I think GoGo said it as well. SS is a socialist program, it takes money from those that are currently working and pays those who are not. The money you pay in every month goes to pay gramma and grandpa. It does not go into an account with your name on it. If we start letting people take money out and keeping it for themselves the program will fall like a house of cards. You have a 401K, what is the problem with having a safety net of SS not only for you but for society in general?

[Tweedling]

Kevin, I politely disagree and stand behind ny earlier comments regarding "sloppy" Joe.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

The current Social Security fund deficit of $1 trillion was primarily caused by two unpaid-for wars and tax breaks for the rich.

This country spends an outlandish amount of money every year on propping up and/or expanding the military industrial complex that Ike warned us about. We need to seriously slash that part of the budget and apply it toward Social Security. The other thing to do is what ih8music said, raise/remove the cap at which SS taxes apply. It should be removed, actually. Problem solved. The concept that "Social Security is going broke" is ridiculous. It's like me taking 50 dollars out of my right pocket, putting it in my left pocket, and saying I'm going broke.

[lost highway]

Mr. Heartbreak you have argued my perspective in a way that is more articulate and less offensive than I did. Well said.