Hixter Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 the Confederate Flag is used by neo-Nazis in European countries where the Swastika is banned. Why? Is it part of the heritage? No. It symbolizes hate.And that points out how symbols can be (mis)appropriated. What if a group of white supremacists decided that WILCO was an acronym for White Ideologues Lynching Colored Occupiers and started wearing the band's shirts? It would symbolize hate and racism, but would that mean that the band's name and imagery should be banned? No, and I'm sure the band would come up with a clever way to reclaim their "brand" while denouncing the racists. I'm sure the same thing could be done with the Stars and Bars. Perhaps rework it in traditional African colors with a "You Lost" banner underneath? African Americans have done a pretty good job of reclaiming the N-word... Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The main thing that's been missing in this discussion is that the meaning of a symbol derives from the average cultural perception in the time that it is being viewed. Some dixie scholar can grumble about the "real meaning" of the stars and bars, and his or her opinion counts as part of the conversation, but it is one voice in a large crowd that forms some consensus based on their subjective interpretation of an abstract graphic design. As it happens there are perhaps more Americans that associate the flag with its more negative connotations. If you wave that flag you have to be prepared that you could be interpreted as backing those negative connotations yourself. I personally find the black cross that is fetishized by bikers and greasers to be a quasi-fascist symbol as it was in fashion amongst SS military elites. I may be enough in the minority about that, that no one's going to call someone out on it. Japan has continued to use the same flag as the one that flew aboard their ships during the WWII era. For many Japanese it has transitioned into a symbol of Japan's rebirth and their progress from a misguided time. For others it is still a painful symbol. Obviously, as others have pointed out, Germany had no intention of redefining the swastika. I can wave it in the form of the Navajo symbol it once was, and qualify that all I want (like folks do with the confederate flag) but I can't ignore that there is a context for interpreting that message that will reflect poorly on me as an individual. The one thing I admire about both Germany and Japan's culture surrounding flags is that it is culturally distasteful to wave them. Both cultures have become rightfully wary about ostentatious displays of patriotism, as they're more often a slippery slope into a nationalistic attitude. Even our own stars and stripes can appear an aggressive, or hateful symbol to me when brandished with too little decorum. When I see pickup trucks with dual red, white, and blues mounted to the cab, I don't see our nation's caused being furthered. I consider the possibility that the individual displaying that much color has an agenda, and is possibly compensating for their untrustworthy nature. Logically, I was more put off by the characters I observed in Arkansas who'd painted the broad side of a barn with the stars and bars. I believe it is their right to do so, but seeing it gave me pause. I can think of no slogan, or symbol I would drape across my property. I think for our values to be developed, or nuanced they shouldn't be encapsulated in a banner. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 No, not really From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-American_peoples_of_the_Americas Afro-American peoples of the Americas is used to refer to people born in the Americas who have African ancestors. Most are descendants of people enslaved and transferred from Sub-Saharan Africa (the vast majority of the Gulf of Guinea) to the Americas by Europeans, to work in their colonies, mostly in mines and plantations as slaves, between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries. At present, they constitute about 18% of the population of the Americas, with the largest concentrations by percentage of population in Haiti (92%), Jamaica (91%), Barbados (90%), Turks and Caicos (90%),Dominica (87%), The Bahamas (85%), Dominican Republic (84%),[7] Saint Lucia (83%), Saint Vincent and the Grenadines(66%), Bermuda (55%), Cuba (50%), Puerto Rico (46%), Belize (35%), Trinidad and Tobago (34.2%),[8] Brazil (29%),Panama (21%), United States (13.6%),[3] Colombia (10.52%),[4] Uruguay (6%),[9][10] Canada (2.9%),[5] and Venezuela(2.8%).[6]yeah it sounds like the scale of plantations was much greater in the carribean and west indies. but on that first link you had: "Unlike any other slave society, the US had a high and sustained natural increase in the slave population for more than a century and a half"And that points out how symbols can be (mis)appropriated. What if a group of white supremacists decided that WILCO was an acronym for White Ideologues Lynching Colored Occupiers and started wearing the band's shirts? It would symbolize hate and racism, but would that mean that the band's name and imagery should be banned? No, and I'm sure the band would come up with a clever way to reclaim their "brand" while denouncing the racists. I'm sure the same thing could be done with the Stars and Bars. Perhaps rework it in traditional African colors with a "You Lost" banner underneath? African Americans have done a pretty good job of reclaiming the N-word...it already happened Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 it already happened Isis used to be one of my favorite shows when I was a kid. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 And that points out how symbols can be (mis)appropriated. What if a group of white supremacists decided that WILCO was an acronym for White Ideologues Lynching Colored Occupiers and started wearing the band's shirts? It would symbolize hate and racism, but would that mean that the band's name and imagery should be banned? No, and I'm sure the band would come up with a clever way to reclaim their "brand" while denouncing the racists. I'm sure the same thing could be done with the Stars and Bars. Perhaps rework it in traditional African colors with a "You Lost" banner underneath? African Americans have done a pretty good job of reclaiming the N-word...The Confederate flag was not misappropriated. It was born out of a treasonous act to defend the right for one segment of the population to keep a different segment of the population as property based upon skin color. Even the swastika can be used in an appropriate (Hindu) context. Its origins predate its most infamous use. The stars & bars has no other meaning unless born out of true ignorance of its history.yeah it sounds like the scale of plantations was much greater in the carribean and west indies. but on that first link you had: "Unlike any other slave society, the US had a high and sustained natural increase in the slave population for more than a century and a half"it already happenedAhh.. Thanks for clarifying. Also, well played with Isis. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Related tweet. https://twitter.com/NYTArchives/status/613694843286626304 Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The Confederate flag was not misappropriated.It was by European white supremacists, and that's what I referred to. I don't really feel like a southerner, but I've lived the majority of my life in the south. The impression that I've always gotten from people who display the Stars and Bars hasn't been one of racism, rather a little bit of heritage/history and a whole lot of "up yours, Yankees." I see the south and southerners maligned almost daily -- Florida Man, Texas sucks (except Austin), redneck bible-thumping hillbillies, etc. and I think most people just see it as an "I'm proud to be a southerner" statement rather than "I'm a racist." Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 It was by European white supremacists, and that's what I referred to. I don't really feel like a southerner, but I've lived the majority of my life in the south. The impression that I've always gotten from people who display the Stars and Bars hasn't been one of racism, rather a little bit of heritage/history and a whole lot of "up yours, Yankees." I see the south and southerners maligned almost daily -- Florida Man, Texas sucks (except Austin), redneck bible-thumping hillbillies, etc. and I think most people just see it as an "I'm proud to be a southerner" statement rather than "I'm a racist."You mean European white supremacists from abroad, not the white supremacists of European descent who were part of the rebellion? (You can see how this gets tricky.) Also it's fair to say there is an ignorant prejudice against people from the south. The presence of a drawl (let alone a twang) is enough to bring some northerners to misjudge the intelligence of the person speaking. That division weakens the unity and harmony of our country, while being an ironic xenophobia on the part of an anti-racist. Yet, I'm not sure waving a confederate flag is the best way to clear up misconceptions. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 you gotta admit that Florida Man is pretty fucking awesome (and there's always fresh material). Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yet, I'm not sure waving a confederate flag is the best way to clear up misconceptions.True, but I'm also not sure that banning or removing every instance of an historical flag as a knee-jerk reaction to a single case of racism is the best way to further racial harmony in our nation. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Also it's fair to say there is an ignorant prejudice against people from the south. The presence of a drawl (let alone a twang) is enough to bring some northerners to misjudge the intelligence of the person speaking. That division weakens the unity and harmony of our country, while being an ironic xenophobia on the part of an anti-racist. Yet, I'm not sure waving a confederate flag is the best way to clear up misconceptions.Yes. Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I don't think anyone is planning on, or even could ban every instance. I think government buildings is the goal, which you can see is more than a little logical as we don't need the flag of a competing, rebellion government next to the stars and stripes down at the state house. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 well take a look at this! Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 well take a look at this!and THIS Can I still get a car horn that plays Dixie? If not, La Cucuracha will have to suffice... Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 well take a look at this!and THISWhat's the over & under for Jeff Tweedy mentioning the ashes of confederate flags from the stage at Solid Sound this week? So where do we stop in our quest to avoid even the slightest connection to slavery, racism or fascism? I guess Spandau Ballet will be changing their name soon and if the Washington Redskins organization isn't having an urgent meeting at this very moment I'll eat my hat. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Funny you should bring up the Redskins. I was thinking about that name. Granted, Redskin has a history as an epithet, but I have lots of Blackhawks fan friends who didn't mind celebrating that team who would vilify the Redskins name. My question is why celebrate parts of our culture that represent divisiveness, hatred, or oppression? Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So where do we stop in our quest to avoid even the slightest connection to slavery, racism or fascism? I guess Spandau Ballet will be changing their name soon and if the Washington Redskins organization isn't having an urgent meeting at this very moment I'll eat my hat. I looked up what Spandau Ballet and if True it is a pretty awful name. Anyway, I think both you and I agree that what is being done about the Confederate Flag is pretty stupid as a response to racism, or the shootings in SC. But one has to remember Synyrd, the Dukes of Hazzard, Amazon, etc. are doing all of this out of public pressure. The government is not telling them they can't sell or use these items. The confederate battle flag is a hateful symbol and has been. Maybe those that have it or display it aren't racist, but they are ignorant of history and its meaning. The flags/symbols carry meaning. That is why they are used. You look at the American Flag, it means something and it means something collectively. You look at the McDonald's arches, it means something. You look at the Starbucks logo and it means something. You look at the Confederate battle flag and it means something. All of these things are based on their collective history in society. I don't think one person here is advocating for a banning of the confederate flag. As an American you display and have any damn fool thing you want. Just as every American has the right to see people who display this flags as racist morons. Also I hope the Redskins change their name soon, it is a truly terrible name. Just as a side note with this discussion we totally forgot about Bobby Jindal! The clown car is a full baker's dozen! And Donald Trump is like third in the polls. Third. God help America if this idiot becomes president. Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I think this discussion, slippery slope fallacies aside, has mostly run its course. But I can't resist swinging by for one last thing that occurred to me: That psycho in SC also had a Rhodesia flag on his jacket. Is there a better analogy- basically the same piece of anachronistic-offensive flair in a different geographical context- than looking at the Rhodesia flag next to the Confederate flag. Now back to the less symbolic, seemingly insurmountable task of combating institutional racism... Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Health Care Saved! SCOTUS did the right thing and rejected King v Burwell in a 6-3 decision. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/25/obamacare-supreme-court-decision_n_7346048.html So I wonder if the GOP lead congress will continue on this mantra of repeal. And can anyone really say that this Health Care law has been bad? It certainly has not been the disaster that GOP has proclaimed it would be. Link to post Share on other sites
caliber66 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Point of order, this flag is the Stars and Bars: Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Seriously? Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Here is a flag that has meaning. It also now can stand for Marriage Equality for ALL! Good Job SCOTUS! Today is a great day for America. Link to post Share on other sites
bleedorange Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Here is a flag that has meaning. It also now can stand for Marriage Equality for ALL! Good Job SCOTUS! Today is a great day for America. That flag is a symbol of hate directed at all the God-fearing Christians who are being persecuted by this nefarious agenda.* * Yes, I have seen this expressed online numerous times. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 That flag is a symbol of hate directed at all the God-fearing Christians who are being persecuted by this nefarious agenda.* * Yes, I have seen this expressed online numerous times. I made the mistake of reading the comments from the TheBlaze article about the SCOTUS decision today. Wow, it was a depressing couple of minutes. Link to post Share on other sites
uncool2pillow Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 I am very happy with today's decision and it is a big step. But if anyone thinks this is going to end the debate must not be paying much attention to how Roe v. Wade affected the abortion debate. Link to post Share on other sites
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