Politics 2015

[John Smith]

So after a good discussion today I have learned that the only solution to gun violence in the US is more proliferation of weapons, no other solution is possible.  I've also learned that in order to defeat ISIS or any Jihadist we just need to bomb the shit out of them and kill them all.  No other solution is possible.  I've also learned that killing them all coupled with the unfortunate collateral damage of our bombing does not cause more people to join their ranks, it is just the ideology of their religion. That pretty much sums it up.  This is f'd up. not productive at all either.

[Hixter]

dude, really?

Yes, really. If you'd like to prepare an accounting of the numbers of gay people executed under Christianity and Islam over the last few decades, be my guest. 

 

The United States government doesn't execute citizens for being gay, but several Islamic countries do. And guess which book they cite to justify their executions?

[lost highway]

The more I look at the events, the rhetoric and the social psychology with this stuff, the more I realize Americans , as a whole group of well-meaning people, need to be very careful.

 

We have a real, but nebulous threat to the wellbeing of our citizens. We have a heightened perception of that threat. Our military is inextricably immersed in multiple foreign quagmires. Perhaps worst of all, we have a growing sentiment of xenophobia and bigotry amongst a growing contingent of our population.

 

These could be the ingredients to set the stage for what history could regard as a catastrophic fuckup in our country's tale. I'm not saying this is doomsday or anything crazy. It might all deescalate, but with an election on the horizon and danger in the air things could get real stupid real fast.

[Hixter]

So after a good discussion today I have learned that the only solution to gun violence in the US is more proliferation of weapons, no other solution is possible. 

I, for one, never said that.

 

I've also learned that in order to defeat ISIS or any Jihadist we just need to bomb the shit out of them and kill them all.  No other solution is possible.  

Nor that, although it's probably very close to being true. Didn't someone else post an article about it being impossible to eliminate terrorism?

 

I've also learned that killing them all coupled with the unfortunate collateral damage of our bombing does not cause more people to join their ranks

Nor did I say that. 

It might all deescalate, but with an election on the horizon and danger in the air things could get real stupid real fast.

If something serious happens, it'll likely involve the Russians, Chinese and/or the Iranians. And it won't be because they haven't given us plenty of warning.

[John Smith]

Very defensive I didn't say you said any of that. Those thoughts are just the general tone of the discussion today, and pretty much every day.

[Vacant Horizon]

So do not attempt to change their minds...check

Bomb the shit out of them...check

Keep doing what we are doing because that works...check

Trying to see how the other side views this is blaming the US, stop doing it...check.

Bring Hitler into the conversation to validate everything...check

Now waiting anxiously for the inevitable Chamberlin/appeasement references...

 

Ignoring the fact that an American has about .02% chance of being injured, much less killed in a terrorist attack…check

Ignore the fact that people are hurt and die every day from things we could easily change (hunger, treatable disease)…check

Ignore the increasing misery of the middle class (you and me) that is obviously caused by the power of an elite super rich class…check

Ignore the fact that the number of people killed by American drones/bombs makes terrorist fatalities seem insignificant (they're not)…check

Ignore any kind of reason, social, economic or historical context and just do the old reactionary/essentialist thing we always do..check

Ignore the systemic underlying causes of terrorism…check

 

IMHO, of course.  We wouldn't want to not have a balanced discussion where all opinions are equal.

The more I look at the events, the rhetoric and the social psychology with this stuff, the more I realize Americans , as a whole group of well-meaning people, need to be very careful.

 

We have a real, but nebulous threat to the wellbeing of our citizens. We have a heightened perception of that threat. Our military is inextricably immersed in multiple foreign quagmires. Perhaps worst of all, we have a growing sentiment of xenophobia and bigotry amongst a growing contingent of our population.

 

These could be the ingredients to set the stage for what history could regard as a catastrophic fuckup in our country's tale. I'm not saying this is doomsday or anything crazy. It might all deescalate, but with an election on the horizon and danger in the air things could get real stupid real fast.

 

And we haven't caused a catastrophic fuck up before?

[John Smith]

Yes, really. If you'd like to prepare an accounting of the numbers of gay people executed under Christianity and Islam over the last few decades, be my guest. 

 

The United States government doesn't execute citizens for being gay, but several Islamic countries do. And guess which book they cite to justify their executions?

Executing gays is not law in the US, but there are people who would like the christian version of Sharia law, and people vying for power suck up to them...

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/gop-confab-ends-call-execute-gays-who-dont-repent-send-queen-elsa-back-hell

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/post_10496_b_8544540.html

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1141647/Pastor-calls-execution-gay-people.html

and some supported this, not our country but...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014

and our civilized European friends...

http://instinctmagazine.com/post/catholic-bishop-says-bible-calls-execution-gay-people

Some are a little kinder and only want to imprison gays...

http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/pastor-calls-to-imprison-gays-for-ten-years-hard-labor-with-new-constitutional-amendment/

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/preacher-arrested-for-calling-homosexuality-a-sin.html

https://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2010/01/6562/

 

That's just scratching the surface, these things are definitely on peoples wish lists. and of course, guess which book they use to justify their wishes?

[tinnitus photography]

At The Mountains Of Madness?

[lost highway]

And we haven't caused a catastrophic fuck up before?

I hear you. I guess that's what I'm getting at. There's a pattern to when these things happen. I'm imaging a new kind of shitty here at home. Something Nixonian, or like the McCarthy trials, or Japanese internment camps- another brand of shame.

[Hixter]

Executing gays is not law in the US, but there are people who would like the christian version of Sharia law

Let me know when the American government begins executing gays and uses the Bible for justification. 

[Winston Legthigh]

For Kevin:

 

See? Is Dick Cheney chastising Trump good for you?

[KevinG]

For Kevin:

 

See? Is Dick Cheney chastising Trump good for you?

Yes, the response from the GOP has been very good, glad to see it. Now let's what happens in the polls.

 

I guess full on Fascism is too much for the GOP establishment.   

[John Smith]

Let me know when the American government begins executing gays and uses the Bible for justification.

I didn't say they were or are about too, I'm just pointing out that it is on people's wish list. Also pointing out other nations where it has been made law and not necessarily using the Koran as justification. Btw what verse from the Koran is it that they use? Just curious. Religious extremists are not limited to one religion, we just choose to focus on one religion to suit political purposes.

[tinnitus photography]

"it's hard to vent them"

 

 

makes you think.....

 

https://www.facebook.com/msnbc/videos/1066241166805468/

[KevinG]

"it's hard to vent them"

 

 

makes you think.....

 

https://www.facebook.com/msnbc/videos/1066241166805468/

 

Hipsters for Trump!

[Magnetized]

"it's hard to vent them"

 

 

makes you think.....

 

https://www.facebook.com/msnbc/videos/1066241166805468/

Yeah, with those flowing garments and burqas, it can be really hard to vent them. 

[Winston Legthigh]

You just need to open the flue.

 

Left = closed. Right = open.

[Griddles]

So I was reading an article on NationalReview today about gun control and saw this paragraph. 

[AR-15]isn’t exotic or particularly powerful. It is the most popular rifle in the country. At least 3.5 million are in circulation. It is lightweight, accurate, and without much kick. You wouldn’t use it in combat and, in fact, wouldn’t necessarily use it to hunt. A .223-caliber gun, it is less powerful than many handguns. Some states forbid .223-caliber rifles in deer hunting because they aren’t powerful enough to reliably take down the game.

I was just wondering if this gun isn't great for hunting how it is the most popular? Is it just good for target practice?
I'm not trying to bring up the gun debate again, I just don't personally know anyone who owns one so was wondering.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428156/gun-control-san-bernardino-shooting-lowry

 

Oh and for those who wonder about the context of finding articles, I read news from everything from TheBlaze to the NYTimes just so I can get different sides of the coin. 

[KevinG]

So I was reading an article on NationalReview today about gun control and saw this paragraph. 

I was just wondering if this gun isn't great for hunting how it is the most popular? Is it just good for target practice?

I'm not trying to bring up the gun debate again, I just don't personally know anyone who owns one so was wondering.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428156/gun-control-san-bernardino-shooting-lowry

 

 I can only assume because it looks fucking cool and you feel like a cool mother fucker shooting shit.  

 

Or maybe it's bacon cooking properties*

 

https://youtu.be/EaZGaJrd3x8

 

*full disclosure I don't what type of firearm Ted Cruz used.  

 

[LouieB]

Damn people......guns like you describe are only used for hunting people not animals.  Okay maybe most people don't use them to hunt real people, just fake target people, but they are for that only.  Maybe they are used to protect yourself against dangerous people, but it's only people. Most of the guns in circulation are not for hunting animals, there simply are not that many animals to hunt.  You can kill a bunny or a raccoon with a fairly low caliper rifle; you need something a little stronger for a deer or a bear or a moose or an elk, but still... 

 

This country is busy hunting people, not animals.

 

Disclaimer - I live in what we all know is one of the most dangerous cities in the country, although my home is in a fairly safe neighborhood, but shootings do occur.  I work in the neighborhoods where people are shot all the time.  I don't carry a gun, don't own a gun, and am not consider buying one.  Call me stupid, but I just don't see the need.  Those people who think they do need them I guess it's fine, but look deep into your soul why you are so paranoid of your fellow human beings that you think you need one. 

 

I'm really tired of this debate and what the first amendment means.  Own guns if you need to because you are that afraid, but maybe try and be a little less afraid.  You have a right to own a gun, but think of what is says about you as a person.  Meanwhile I am going to walk this earth in the little time I have left and not worry about being gunned down. IF it happens, so be it.  Maybe this topic doesn't belong in politics at all, maybe it belongs in philosophy or religion.

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

I was just wondering if this gun isn't great for hunting how it is the most popular? Is it just good for target practice?

I'm not trying to bring up the gun debate again, I just don't personally know anyone who owns one so was wondering.

Partially because 1/4 of adult American males have served in the military and are familiar with the operation and maintenance of the AR-15 style of weapon. Partially because it's lightweight and fairly cheap. Partially because surplus ammunition is rather cheap and plentiful. Partially because it's extremely customizable and there are a million accessories available for it. 

 

An AR-15 in .223 is fine for hunting deer; I've done it. My friend killed a large axis (species of deer native to India) buck 2 weeks ago with an AR at a range of 300 yards. But since it's not a very powerful round it's typically used to take close shots -- often to the head. Note that there are AR-15s manufactured in many different calibers, including the much more powerful .308.

 

Damn people......guns like you describe are only used for hunting people not animals.

See above. I'll guarantee you that more deer were killed with AR-15s last week than will be killed all year by the same type of weapon.

[Griddles]

Thanks for the clear answer Hixter. 
I do have one question though, where do you get the 1/4th statistic? According to fivethirtyeight
 

1.4 percent of all female Americans have ever served in the armed services, compared to 13.4 percent of all male Americans.

Just wondering.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-percentage-of-americans-have-served-in-the-military/

[Vacant Horizon]

I hear you. I guess that's what I'm getting at. There's a pattern to when these things happen. I'm imaging a new kind of shitty here at home. Something Nixonian, or like the McCarthy trials, or Japanese internment camps- another brand of shame.

 

Right.  It seems there was a moment of relief when Obama got elected just because it was an end of the Bush years.  Your concern about what comes next is probably not too far off.  Terrorism is an issue, obviously.  But hasn't a decade of the War on Terror just caused more terror?  I know this is nothing new.  We're an insane country doing the same thing over and over again.  This ridiculous scapegoating of Muslims is so irrational and ridiculous.  The US is as guilty as the next 'radical Muslim group'  Not to mention the deluded double standard when comparing to Christian terrorists.  I've had people actually say to me that bombing of abortion clinics is not terrorism because the perpetrators are essentially trying to save babies from being killed.  I mean, all this reactionary rhetoric is so scary.  I will also mention that most of the shootings in the last few years have been perpetrated by ultra right wing white men.

 

Alas, the white lower and middle class with stand by while the continue to be sucked dry to fund another war.  There are real atrocities that affect billions of people everyday that we could 'fight against'.  More people will die on the road traveling for Xmas than have been killed in all recent terrorist attacks.  It's just insane.

 

Disclaimer-obviously, anytime people are killed is a tragedy.  We need to address all of them!

[Magnetized]

LouieB, you said it all. I'm going to do my best to just let that be the last word on the subject for me and to let these fearful, paranoid, soulless gun-worshipping posts roll off my back. There's no point to this endless reiteration of second amendment rights and dueling statistics. It makes my blood boil.

[Hixter]

Thanks for the clear answer Hixter. 

I do have one question though, where do you get the 1/4th statistic? 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/158729/men-women-veterans.aspx

 

Maybe your figure takes into account all males and not 18+? 25% seems to track pretty well with what I've found in my circle of acquaintances.

I will also mention that most of the shootings in the last few years have been perpetrated by ultra right wing white men.

Nope. The FBI's murder stats are broken down by race and weapon, but not in the same chart. But these latest figures show that murder arrests for African Americans outnumber those of whites (which are combined with Hispanic citizens.

 

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43

 

Own guns if you need to because you are that afraid, but maybe try and be a little less afraid. 

 

I'm going to do my best to just let that be the last word on the subject for me and to let these fearful, paranoid, soulless gun-worshipping posts roll off my back. 

Countless pages of reasonable discussion and you've come away with the impression that backers of the second amendment are scared, paranoid soulless gun worshipers? I think it says a lot more about your beliefs than those who support gun ownership.