Hixter Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Guys - military participation percentages are a sideshow to the shitshow. Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 YES! I was so hoping I'd see something like this as I got caught up on this thread! Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 As I've mentioned before, there is a difference between "all male Americans" and "adult American males." It's kind of silly to include toddlers in the equation. Jee sure is interesting how context can affect a stated fact. Link to post Share on other sites
Doctor B Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 So lets see, Jihadist attack people with guns and pipe bombs ( not used, thankfully). The left tells us not to include all Muslims in our anger ,correctly. However, all legal owners of firearms (millions) are now branded as the problem and you guys go along with that? For the record, I do not own an AR-15 but I have no issues with it. I just do not see the hostility to owning a weapon and yet little hostility directed at people that are the most illiberal on earth and insist on trying to kill us. The story is about Muslim terrorists in America (yet again) killing innocents. I have not heard banning alcohol whenever a drunk driver kills someone. Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Well, of all the AR-15 owners, surely none of them must be Christians, not with the whole "Thou shalt not kill" and the whole "Turn the other cheek" thing that are such a fundamental parts of their way of life. Link to post Share on other sites
Griddles Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Guys - military participation percentages are a sideshow to the shitshow. The only reason Hixter even brought it up was that he was guessing at an answer as to why so many AR-15s are owned in the US. He guessed that part of the reason probably has to do with military service. He's probably right that military service has something to do with it. Christ.I totally agree. I just like to know where people get there numbers especially when I see very different ones. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 So lets see, Jihadist attack people with guns and pipe bombs ( not used, thankfully). The left tells us not to include all Muslims in our anger ,correctly. However, all legal owners of firearms (millions) are now branded as the problem and you guys go along with that?i don't see where anyone said that. and the issue of gun control and what types of checks and regulations are sensible has been going on long before San Bernandino. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I have not heard banning alcohol whenever a drunk driver kills someone. No you don't, but you see increasingly tougher drunk driving laws to stop a person from driving drunk. But to further expound on your analogy it is illegal to sell alcohol without a license and illegal to sell high proof alcohol, in some areas you can't sell alcohol at all. There are all kinds of laws surrounding alcohol. And in fact there is an organization called MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) who promote the responsible use of alcohol. For the record, I do not own an AR-15 but I have no issues with it. I just do not see the hostility to owning a weapon and yet little hostility directed at people that are the most illiberal on earth and insist on trying to kill us. What the hell are you talking about? We are extremely hostile to these "illiberal" places. We have been in some sort of conflict in the Middle East for decades. Currently we are bombing ISIL forces, etc. I would say our country is outwardly hostile. So the people that are trying to kill us, yes it is ISIL. Yes they are Muslims, but just because they are Muslims does not mean all Muslims are trying to kill us. When you equate the actions of a small group to the actions of a whole faith you do a disservice to that faith. The Muslim faith has a problem with extremism. The leaders of that faith have to deal with that. The story is about Muslim terrorists in America (yet again) killing innocents. Wikipedia lists all of the "terrorist" attacks in the United States since 9/11https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States#2000s As you can see terrorism is a problem. All kinds of people are trying to kill us or cause fear. They are not all Muslims or related to Jihadist movements, please don't make it sound like every time there is a terrorist attack in this country it is the Muslims. However, all legal owners of firearms (millions) are now branded as the problem and you guys go along with that? Has anyone said that? I have no problem with the legal use of firearms. They are an ingrained part of our country and a rich history of our nation. I have said this before, I am sure Hixter and others are safe responsible gun owners and treat firearms with the respect the deserve. If all people who had guns and used guns were like that we would have no problems. However there is a segment of the population who do not use guns safely or use the guns to harm/kill other people. And it is a lot of people. Regardless of by violence or suicide people are being killed by guns, this is an undeniable fact. We all have admitted that gun violence is a problem. We just cannot agree what to do about it. Gun owners are not problem. I think were the problem lies is with organizations like NRA, who are the lobbying arm of the gun manufactures. These organizations who not only oppose any new measures to curb gun violence they actively try to undermine the laws and systems we have in place. But I do not lump every gun owner in with the NRA. Link to post Share on other sites
John Smith Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYhHIe_UELM This comes to mind today, and almost everyday actually Link to post Share on other sites
lost highway Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 However, all legal owners of firearms (millions) are now branded as the problem and you guys go along with that? If anyone is saying that they're wrong. The intellectual center of the anti-gun movement is not a moral indictment of gun owners. It's a moral obligation to legislate. It's systemic, demographic, data.... a move to improve things statistically. It is an attempt to exchange my personal right to own a gun for the decreased probability of someone I've never met being shot. I can safely drive 80 miles an hour on a 55 mile an hour highway. I feel that way (in fact I've probably demonstrated it in a moment of unlawfulness). The exchange is that I won't have the right because the highway is statistically safer if the speed limit is under 80. If you have a problem with that idea under the assumption that someone is guaranteed to get into an accident either way, and that someone else is guaranteed to break that law, you've fallen into what is called the "Nirvana fallacy" (poorly named if you've studied Buddhism). This is the assumption that an attempt to solve a problem is worthless because it is not perfect and does not have utopian outcomes. I have no doubts that if we only allowed police officers and military to carry guns that people would still be shot, and others would own illegal guns. The idea is that the inevitable decrease in gun violence is a worthy exchange for my right to own a weapon. We're retreading ground here, but I just get tired of how poorly the argument is framed. I'm not thinking I can convince someone. I have no doubt that many gun owners would not sacrifice their right for selfish reasons- just as my interest in letting go of the right is somewhat selfish as I have no gun to get rid of. I'd watch someone else lose something they care about. The only real philosophical argument for gun rights is libertarian in nature. It is one that suggests that allowing danger is an inevitable exchange for freedom. It is the same thinking that says although we could reduce crime if police officers stopped and searched anyone they wanted, we won't take that step because that's not the kind of country we want to live in. In other words, that the freedom for its own sake, is a strong enough value that its worth the repercussions. Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Countless pages of reasonable discussion and you've come away with the impression that backers of the second amendment are scared, paranoid soulless gun worshipers? I think it says a lot more about your beliefs than those who support gun ownership.That's laughable. The loudest voices on the gun nut side can't see beyond their full and unadulterated worship of all things that go bang when you pull the trigger.They scream about needing to be armed against a tyrannical government, never mind that they'll never see the whites of their enemies' eyes as they launch rockets at that pesky militia from miles and miles away. They freak out when there's talk about limiting magazine size because, apparently, their right to be too lazy to reload trumps everyone else's right to not have a gun with 20-30 rounds pointed at them by a lunatic. And hey, we all need armor-piercing bullets to play with, right?They freak out about gun-free zones and limits to where they can carry their firearms because they're all "responsible gun owners" who are going to save us from a mass shooting. Never mind that no CCW as ever stopped a mass shooting even though they were present. Never mind that law enforcement highly discourages someone playing the hero because they are more likely to cause more casualties amidst the chaos, just like the guy who nearly killed an innocent during the Gabby Giffords shooting. Imagine how many more people would have died in the Paris theater had there been crossfire - probably wouldn't have included the terrorists who were wearing body armor (which is hot couture for mass shooters these days).They say stupid things like, "California has the strictest gun laws in the country but that didn't stop the terrorists!" Maybe if the laws were enacted on the Federal level, they wouldn't have found it so easy to get their hands on those rifles. Or should California build a wall and make Nevada or Idaho pay for it?They blame gun violence on our country's lack of sufficient mental health care as though every potential killer will exhibit symptoms of mental illness prior to killing. They feel a registry of people with mental illness will solve all the problems but heaven forbid we register the guns themselves! I guess it's OK to prohibit someone with a mild case of depression from gun ownership - even thought they are no more likely to point a gun at someone than if they didn't have depression - but we need to let all those people on the no-fly list have guns just in case someone made a typo at the no-fly list office.As soon as someone tries to open the dialog about how to reduce gun violence, the gun nuts immediately jump to assuming it will be total and complete confiscation which is not the case. Maybe if the NRA hadn't lobbied to prevent the CDC from studying gun violence over a decade ago, we'd have a better idea of what solutions would work.They fight against Child Access Laws because having to lock up their guns means they aren't accessible when needed for protection. Too bad for all the children who've been accidentally shot or have accidentally shot others.They fight against any limits on the number of guns they can purchase at once or over a period of time, even though that might help curb the problem of straw buyers unloading their inventory on the black market.In other words, the nuts who aren't even willing to acknowledge that the vast numbers of guns are part of the problem much less have reasonable debates about how best to solve it are scared, paranoid, soulless gun worshipers like she said. There are solutions that will not amount to a full "gun-grab" - it's not all or nothing. The problem is, as Wayne LaPierre said himself, "The guys with the guns make the rules." So here we sit with a bunch of loonies who believe that their weapons cache gives them power and they won't give an inch and give any of that up, even if it prevented another twenty 5 and 6 year old kids from dying in their classroom. Before you suggest I'm anti-gun, I'm not. We have guns in our home, all locked up nice and tight. I married into a hunting family and I've hunted myself. I'd post a photo to prove it but neither my husband nor I get off by taking pictures of ourselves with our guns or dead animals. We prefer to say thank you to the animal for filling our freezer and leave it at that. None of the hunters I know have their underwear in a bunch about their shotguns or deer rifles being confiscated. And I know quite a few. I'm just fucking sick and tired of hearing about how being able to own as many of whatever types of guns you want is an unalienable right. All rights have limits. Especially those that take away someone else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And I'm fucking sick and tired of the idiots and the NRA suggesting they're the voice for all of us who own guns. The most certainly DO NOT. Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Yikes Link to post Share on other sites
John Smith Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 YikesThey get fed a steady diet of fear, anger hate etc... So this is not surprising. Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 They get fed a steady diet of fear, anger hate etc... So this is not surprising.It's depressing that our "leaders" would rather cater to the LCD, instead of, you know, how do you say in your country... LEADING. Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 It's depressing that our "leaders" would rather cater to the LCD, instead of, you know, how do you say in your country... LEADING. So when I was freaking out about Trump and (this very thing) a week or so back and you among others were telling me to calm down (in so many words). I guess we finally reached the tipping point on what you find troubling. He pushed the GOP race so far right and now rhetoric like this is acceptable. Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 So when I was freaking out about Trump and (this very thing) a week or so back and you among others were telling me to calm down (in so many words). I guess we finally reached the tipping point on what you find troubling. He pushed the GOP race so far right and now rhetoric like this is acceptable. The GOP is screwed. They either have to stick with Trump (and lose the election with him as their candidate) or let him split off, and then syphon off votes from whomever their guy ends up being. The only reason that Trump has the balls to say what he's saying is that he, unlike the other candidates (other than Carly, but her campaign is all but dead) doesn't depend on the electorate for his well-being. What Trump is saying and doing doesn't bother me. I just think it's depressing that the other elected people are just a bunch of rats who will not say anything controversial (either good or bad) because they're afraid of being voted out of office. Hillary is the same way. She's all about gay marriage now, now that it's safe to do so, now that it's tried and tested, but where were her ethics in the 90s? Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Mohammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar respond to Trump: http://deadspin.com/muslim-sports-heroes-kareem-abdul-jabbar-and-muhammad-a-1747236482 Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Instigator Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I like this from Buzzfeed: “It is, for instance, entirely fair to call him a mendacious racist, as the politics team and others here have reported clearly and aggressively,” wrote Smith. “He’s out there saying things that are false and running an overtly anti-Muslim campaign. BuzzFeed News’s reporting is rooted in facts, not opinion; these are facts.” http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/09/buzzfeed-editor-in-chief-donald-trump Link to post Share on other sites
Hixter Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Just in case anyone thinks it's only Republicans who have an unfavorable opinion on Islam: https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/12/09/most-americans-dislike-islam/ Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I have an unfavorable opinion on any religion. And I'm Catholic. (kind of) Link to post Share on other sites
KevinG Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Just in case anyone thinks it's only Republicans who have an unfavorable opinion on Islam: https://today.yougov.com/news/2015/12/09/most-americans-dislike-islam/ You and your graphs. What is not shown in that graph (or not directly pointed out) is 25% of respondance had no opinion or did not know. Which is a huge number. That should not be disregarded and if you look at the poll as I first did you see one bar is bigger than the other and that is it. And for those of you who want a full picture (not just a simplified version) here is the study and all the numbers https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/vcc1994e12/tabs_HP_Islam_20151207.pdfhttps://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/z1kr95nn8q/toplines_HP_Islam_20151207.pdf The full study, which does give some deeper context, is still bothersome. What is interesting is in the second link (which groups the question by totals and is easy to glance at) is questions 2 through 5. As it appears Americans do not know much about Islam, don't know people who are Muslim, and not really interested in learning more about Islam. Which is where the problem lies. What we see on the news and in our daily life about Muslims and the Islamic faith is pretty bad. It is ISIS did this, ISIS bombed this, ISIS beheaded this, etc. Also it seems that in many Movies and TV shows the Muslim character is a terrorist or bad guy. There are a handful of things in our culture that show Muslims in a positive light. I am talking mainstream here not some indie film or show that is on channel 387. In this country we are not exposed to many Muslims. And it is true we fear what we don't know and this poll clearly points that out. Also is should be noted the percentage of people who have an unfavorable opinion of Islam (58%) is statistically the same as people who don't know much about Islam (52%). The headline of this article could be "Most Americans Don't Know Anything About Islam." Does it tell the same story, no, but the facts are the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Winston Legthigh Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Why didn't the survey allow for an "I have no opinion on Islam" or "I am neutral on Islam" answer? Dumb. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I have an unfavorable opinion on any religion. And I'm Catholic. (kind of) yes. Link to post Share on other sites
tinnitus photography Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 If Hillary Clinton is elected, should I leave the country? Absolutely! In fact, I encourage everyone who can't stand Hillary Clinton to leave the country immediately. Don't even wait for the election. I wouldn't choose Europe, though. If you like small government, low taxes, no gun control, personal responsibility, and old-fashioned family values, Somalia is the place for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Griddles Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 As it appears Americans do not know much about Islam, don't know people who are Muslim, and not really interested in learning more about Islam. Which is where the problem lies. What we see on the news and in our daily life about Muslims and the Islamic faith is pretty bad. It is ISIS did this, ISIS bombed this, ISIS beheaded this, etc. Also it seems that in many Movies and TV shows the Muslim character is a terrorist or bad guy. There are a handful of things in our culture that show Muslims in a positive light. I am talking mainstream here not some indie film or show that is on channel 387. In this country we are not exposed to many Muslims. Growing in a small town in Iowa I was not exposed to any Muslims at all. Most of what I gathered was from reading these books, in case anyone is interested: Milestones by Sayyid Qutb a leader in the early Muslim Brotherhoodhttp://www.amazon.com/Milestones-Sayed-Qutb/dp/817231244X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449771607&sr=8- 1&keywords=milestonesThe First Muslim by Lesley Hazleton http://www.amazon.com/First-Muslim-Story-Muhammad/dp/1594632308/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449771894&sr=8-1&keywords=the+first+muslimNo God but God by Reza Aslanhttp://www.amazon.com/god-but-God-Updated-Edition/dp/0812982444/ref=pd_rhf_se_s_cp_6?ie=UTF8&dpID=51DW5Mh9-zL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR87%2C135_&refRID=0C5KJZ3PXZ1RAJF1AVSY Sorry I'm a librarian. Link to post Share on other sites
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