The baseball thread

[parisisstale]

Can't let this thread fall off the first page?

 

Anyone care to make an argument against Mariano being the greatest closer of all-time ?

[MrRain422]

No, but I'm happy to make an argument about how the saves category has made a bunch of managers complete idiots when it comes to managing their bullpen. Mariano Rivera is the man though.

[cryptique]

Anyone care to make an argument against Mariano being the greatest closer of all-time ?

I'd love to, because he's a Yankee. However, I'd have a hard time finding any good evidence to back up that argument, so I'll pass.

[ction]

Billy Wagner > Mariano Rivera

[MattZ]

I wouldnt even try to make an argument like this, but I do think its interesting that in all the discussions about how great Mariano Rivera is, folks tend to forget that he has also blown some pretty enormous games -- like Game 7 of the WS against Arizona and game 5 (?) against the Indians on a homer a number of years ago to lose a series (did Manny hit that?). I think he also blew a game against the Sox a couple of years ago when the sox made their comeback from down 3-0. Wasn't he pitching when Dave Roberts stole second and then scored?

 

Dont get me wrong -- he is the best closer ever. Every closer blows games. But he lost two playoff series with blown saves and couldnt put away the Sox in that series from 2 years ago. That's three playoff series! Of course, when the Yankees are in 10 straight, that doesnt seem so bad.

 

I suppose that maybe all this means is that he's human, but the discussions about him sometimes lean towards the fact that he isn't human. And that he is simply beyond criticism. At least in NY.

[tongue-tied lightning]

this dude was the man

[tongue-tied lightning]

since I can't get a pic of Rollie Fingers to work

he was da man

[parisisstale]

I wouldnt even try to make an argument like this, but I do think its interesting that in all the discussions about how great Mariano Rivera is, folks tend to forget that he has also blown some pretty enormous games -- like Game 7 of the WS against Arizona and game 5 (?) against the Indians on a homer a number of years ago to lose a series (did Manny hit that?). I think he also blew a game against the Sox a couple of years ago when the sox made their comeback from down 3-0. Wasn't he pitching when Dave Roberts stole second and then scored?

 

The Sox have definitely got to him a few times. A dribbler beat him in the DBacks series. The Sandy Alomar Jr. homer was the only other hiccup (that game hurt).

 

10 EARNED RUNS over 72 postseason games (111 innings) !!!!

 

Without him, the Yankees only win 1 (maybe 2) of the 4 they won.

[Lammycat]

I think he also blew a game against the Sox a couple of years ago when the sox made their comeback from down 3-0. Wasn't he pitching when Dave Roberts stole second and then scored?

This was game 4 of the ALCS and Roberts was pinch running for Kevin Millar, who had drawn a walk off of Rivera. Everyone in the building knew he was going to try and steal second and Rivera tossed over to first 3-4 times to check Roberts. Roberts took off after the 3rd or fourth check and just barely made it to second under Jeter's glove. This, of course, was the turning point for the greatest comeback in MLB history, and adversely, the beginning of the greatest choke in MLB history. This will unlikely ever change.

 

That all said, it's undeniable that he's the greatest closer the game has seen, AND, the greatest post-season closer. In 2004 he won, again, the Rolaids Relief Award with 54 (might have been 55?) saves and under a 2.00 ERA. That's crazy. Let's also remember this postseason (I believe it was during game 2 or 3 of the ALCS) included Rivera flying back to the States the same day as burying a couple of cousins who had been electrocuted and he was tight with. He promptly earned a save the same night.

 

Rivera holds the record for both most saves in the post-season and best E.R.A. in the post-season. He's been a key factor in all four WS he's been a part of leading the Yankees to, as well. He also is either number 3 or 4 on the all-time winningest closer in history.

 

This now concludes my reprehensible action of defending/making a case for a Yankee.

 

I suppose that maybe all this means is that he's human, but the discussions about him sometimes lean towards the fact that he isn't human.

He isn't human. He's a fruitbat.

[bobbob1313]

This was game 4 of the ALCS and Roberts was pinch running for Kevin Millar, who had drawn a walk off of Rivera. Everyone in the building knew he was going to try and steal second and Rivera tossed over to first 3-4 times to check Roberts. Roberts took off after the 3rd or fourth check and just barely made it to second under Jeter's glove. This, of course, was the turning point for the greatest comeback in MLB history, and adversely, the beginning of the greatest choke in MLB history. This will unlikely ever change.

 

Yeah, that was by far the only series that ever happened in major league history. All postseason play before that had been leading up to that one moment, and everything after has just been a formality. I mean, the Red Sox against the Yankees? Thats a matchup we never get to see!

[Sir Stewart]

Yeah, that was by far the only series that ever happened in major league history. All postseason play before that had been leading up to that one moment, and everything after has just been a formality. I mean, the Red Sox against the Yankees? Thats a matchup we never get to see!

[Lammycat]

Yeah, that was by far the only series that ever happened in major league history. All postseason play before that had been leading up to that one moment, and everything after has just been a formality. I mean, the Red Sox against the Yankees? Thats a matchup we never get to see!

What's your point?

[bobbob1313]

What's your point?

 

That it was the single greatest moment in baseball history, and definetly needs to be talked about more.

 

And Mo probably isn't the best closer ever, because he 90% of the time he's throwing one inning a game. Guys like Eckersley and the closers of the 80's routinely went multiple innings to pick up saves.

 

 

BUT THEY BEAT THE EVIL EMPIRE!!!11

[cryptique]

That it was the single greatest moment in baseball history, and definetly needs to be talked about more.

Nobody claimed it was the greatest moment in baseball history. But I agree with Lammycat that it was the greatest comeback and greatest choke in baseball history, and there's unlikely to ever be one quite like it.

 

Yankees blow a three-games-to-none lead in a League Championship Series to their most bitter rivals, who then break an 86-year World Series championship drought ... can you seriously offer anything that competes with that?

[Lammycat]

That it was the single greatest moment in baseball history, and definetly needs to be talked about more.

 

And Mo probably isn't the best closer ever, because he 90% of the time he's throwing one inning a game. Guys like Eckersley and the closers of the 80's routinely went multiple innings to pick up saves.

BUT THEY BEAT THE EVIL EMPIRE!!!11

I was responding directly to a post concerning this particular game. Sorry, the question didn't involve those amazing Marlins. That's not my fault. Nor is being avidly interested in any other team not called the Marlins.. Maybe you should have just skipped the post when you saw the dreaded words "Yankees" or "Red Sox." None of this changes the fact that it was at once the greatest comeback and greatest choke in MLB history.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Lammycat

[bobbob1313]

I was responding directly to a post concerning this particular game. Sorry, the question didn't involve those amazing Marlins. That's not my fault. Nor is being avidly interested in any other team not called the Marlins.. Maybe you should have just skipped the post when you saw the dreaded words "Yankees" or "Red Sox." None of this changes the fact that it was at once the greatest comeback and greatest choke in MLB history.

 

I was just saying I'm pretty tired of hearing about it.

 

Yeah, I definetly don't care about any team but the Marlins. And how many posts do you have in this thread that aren't "Man the red sox are doing something" or "Man, I sure do hate those Yankees."?

 

Yes, it was a terrific little comeback, but it's not like it was this unbelievably undermanned team coming together. They had 2 or 3 MVP candidates and a cy young candidate. They were the better team, they just played like shit in the first 3 games.

[bobbob1313]

Nobody claimed it was the greatest moment in baseball history. But I agree with Lammycat that it was the greatest comeback and greatest choke in baseball history, and there's unlikely to ever be one quite like it.

 

Yankees blow a three-games-to-none lead in a League Championship Series to their most bitter rivals, who then break an 86-year World Series championship drought ... can you seriously offer anything that competes with that?

 

Well, since I don't follow any teams but the Marlins, I'd say our little comeback in 2003 was pretty good.

 

Also, the Yankees in 79(?) was pretty good. The whole Bucky Dent thing (although I'm a bit sick of that one too).

 

There were a couple back when they had pennant races instead of divisional championships that were arguably better.

 

My whole point was ESPN and Sports Illustrated and all that treat that series as if it led to the second coming of Jesus and stuff.

[MattZ]

Instead of this boring and ridiculous discussion about the Marlins and the Yanks vs. Sox, how about something else. Such as, what do people think Rivera would have been like if he had remained a starter?

 

I think he was a starter in the minors (but maybe not). Anyway, would he have been just as dominant? Not dominant but an all-star? Middle of the road?

 

When Rivera was coming up, pitchers werent yet being trained to be relievers. I suppose arm strength may have had much to do with the decision to make him a reliever, but assuming he had the arm strength, what do you guys think? Was his stuff good enough to make it through the order two or three times?

 

He really only has one pitch -- the cutter -- so I wonder.

[bobbob1313]

Instead of this boring and ridiculous discussion about the Marlins and the Yanks vs. Sox, how about something else. Such as, what do people think Rivera would have been like if he had remained a starter?

 

I think he was a starter in the minors (but maybe not). Anyway, would he have been just as dominant? Not dominant but an all-star? Middle of the road?

 

When Rivera was coming up, pitchers werent yet being trained to be relievers. I suppose arm strength may have had much to do with the decision to make him a reliever, but assuming he had the arm strength, what do you guys think? Was his stuff good enough to make it through the order two or three times?

 

He really only has one pitch -- the cutter -- so I wonder.

 

I don't think he would have made a good starter, but that's just me. Most closers have the benefit of only having to face batters once or twice in an entire season, whereas starters have to face batters 2 or 3 times a game. I don't think he would've been very good past the 5th inning, as his cutter, while devastating, is basically his only out pitch.

[parisisstale]

And Mo probably isn't the best closer ever, because he 90% of the time he's throwing one inning a game. Guys like Eckersley and the closers of the 80's routinely went multiple innings to pick up saves.

BUT THEY BEAT THE EVIL EMPIRE!!!11

 

 

 

He gets plenty of 4,5, and 6 outs saves. You're just trying to be oppositional, right?

[rareair]

mo > lee smith > billy wagner > mel rojas

[bobbob1313]

He gets plenty of 4,5, and 6 outs saves. You're just trying to be oppositional, right?

 

Since becoming a closer, he has pitched in 577 games and thrown 633 innings. So yes, every 10 appearances he gets 4 outs.

 

So yeah, I'm just being oppositional. Everyone knows Joe Borowski/Todd Jones/Armando Benitez/Robb Nen is the best closer.

[Lammycat]

Yeah, I definetly don't care about any team but the Marlins. And how many posts do you have in this thread that aren't "Man the red sox are doing something" or "Man, I sure do hate those Yankees."?

I didn't say you weren't interested in other teams besides the Marlins. I was referencing myself and other people who are fans of teams not called the Marlins.

 

I have many posts that do not include reference to the Sox or Yankees. Either you have me confused with someone else or you're fixated on your dislike for the A.L. East frontrunners.

 

So you're sick of hearing about the Yankees and Red Sox and their storied history together? So what.

I'd agree that it's blown out of proportion by the media and that, for me, has lost a lot of it's lustre since the 2004 season. This doesn't change the fact that they are worthy of discussion and are still a hot topic in the sports media nationally.

 

ed. I agree with MattZ. Move on.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Lammycat

[bobbob1313]

I didn't say you weren't interested in other teams besides the Marlins. I was referencing myself and other people who are fans of teams not called the Marlins.

 

I have many posts that do not include reference to the Sox or Yankees. Either you have me confused with someone else or you're fixated on your dislike for the A.L. East frontrunners.

 

So you're sick of hearing about the Yankees and Red Sox and their storied history together? So what.

I'd agree that it's blown out of proportion by the media and that, for me, has lost a lot of it's lustre since the 2004 season. This doesn't change the fact that they are worthy of discussion and are still a hot topic in the sports media nationally.

 

ed. I agree with MattZ. Move on.

 

I'd be a fan of the Blue Jays, but they have AJ Burnett, and he's dead to me.

 

Ok, here's a topic for discussion:

 

When are the Yankees going to realize that they will need to rebuild? And the same goes for the red sox, somewhat. They are both old teams with maybe one or two decent prospects coming up. Are they going to keep signing veterans to ridiculously long and overpriced contracts?

 

I think they are going to become flat out bad teams in the very near future. The Yankees are already showing it. Their deep pockets can only hide their bad front office decisions for so long before they crumble. Thoughts?

[parisisstale]

So he's not the greatest closer of all-time because guys 20 and 30 years ago pitched more innings? I love when the baseball talk picks up, but it was really a rhetorical question. But somehow I knew bobbob would find a way to oppose.

 

Also, you called the cutter his only out pitch. Actually, it's his ONLY pitch. He changes speeds and location, but every pitch is a cutter. Just sayin'.

 

Get used to Red Sox/Yankees, because it's never gonna die down. I wondered if the dynamic would be different once the Sox finally got their title, but the energy in the parks and with the fans hasn't changed a bit. Baseball just means everything in these cities, and there's more fans of both all over the country than any other teams.

 

now i'll let it die

Edited July 18, 2006 by parisisstale