Underated Songwriters-Pt 2.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

Yes I agree. After I posted I thought I should have said underrated as a musician/composer. I do remember back in the day just really having a good time with his lyrics too.

 

I was going to say I was at that show in Hartford but I just double checked my stub and it says 11/6/81 @ the Hartford Civic Center.

 

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with y'all about Uncle Frankie. Although Zappa said he considered his lyrics to be pretty much "stupid stuff," many of them were brilliant, and even some of the ones that were mainly funny had great imagery. Check out the lyrics to:

 

Trouble Every Day

Brown Shoes Don't Make It

Mom & Dad

My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama

Camarillo Brillo

Dirty Love

St. Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast

Excentrifugal Forz

Evelyn, A Modified Dog

San Ber'dino

Carolina Hard-Core Ecstasy

Muffin Man

The Torture Never Stops

Flakes

Joe's Garage

 

These are all great songs musically, but the lyrics are something too. As I said, an underrated songwriter, even by himself.

[LouieB]

Also agree with Randy Newman as either underrated/underlistened.

 

In terms of Neil Diamond, I always like watching/listening to his appearance at the Last Waltz. "Dry Your Eyes" is a pretty good song.

I would say that Randy Newman is hardly underrated or underlistened. I believe he has a few songwriting Oscars nominations and at least one win, numerous Grammy nominations and is a widely covered songwriter. Hislist of accomplishments far outweighs most of the people discussed here. He had a great run of albums on WB, but as with most older songwriters, his output is slower than it was.

 

Actually I find Neil Diamond's performance in the Last Waltz totally irritating, but that is just me.

 

LouieB

[mountain bed]

I'm gonna have to disagree with y'all about Uncle Frankie. Although Zappa said he considered his lyrics to be pretty much "stupid stuff," many of them were brilliant, and even some of the ones that were mainly funny had great imagery. Check out the lyrics to:

 

Trouble Every Day

Brown Shoes Don't Make It

Mom & Dad

My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mama

Camarillo Brillo

Dirty Love

St. Alfonzo's Pancake Breakfast

Excentrifugal Forz

Evelyn, A Modified Dog

San Ber'dino

Carolina Hard-Core Ecstasy

Muffin Man

The Torture Never Stops

Flakes

Joe's Garage

 

These are all great songs musically, but the lyrics are something too. As I said, an underrated songwriter, even by himself.

Plenty of others too. I've always thought Hungry Freaks Daddy was great. And Plastic People.

[JohnW]

John Prine, Loudon Wainwright III, Todd Snider

[mjpuczko]

nice call on loudon!

[jhh4321]

I would say that Randy Newman is hardly underrated or underlistened. I believe he has a few songwriting Oscars nominations and at least one win, numerous Grammy nominations and is a widely covered songwriter. Hislist of accomplishments far outweighs most of the people discussed here. He had a great run of albums on WB, but as with most older songwriters, his output is slower than it was.

 

I think what I mean is that Randy's records are often overlooked because of his work with films. When I tell people I like Randy Newman the usual response is something in regards to Toy Story as opposed to Sail Away.

[WilcoFan]

Maybe not so underrated as much as under-known: Greg Brown

[LouieB]

I think what I mean is that Randy's records are often overlooked because of his work with films. When I tell people I like Randy Newman the usual response is something in regards to Toy Story as opposed to Sail Away.

They must be clueless....

Maybe not so underrated as much as under-known: Greg Brown

Good call.

 

LouieB

[markosis]

Actually I find Neil Diamond's performance in the Last Waltz totally irritating, but that is just me.

 

Absolutely. I'd go a step further and say it totally kills the momentum of the film up to that point and it doesn't pick up again until "The Weight." The fact that he was even included in that concert is a god damn travesty.

[LouieB]

Absolutely. I'd go a step further and say it totally kills the momentum of the film up to that point and it doesn't pick up again until "The Weight." The fact that he was even included in that concert is a god damn travesty.

It does kill the momentum, but part of the Last Waltz was to showcase the other artists that the members of the Band had been working with and Robbie produced Neil's "Beautiful Noise" album (which I have to admit I NEVER had any interest in hearing...), so that was the reason he got stuck on the bill. Meanwhile the other colleagues of the band such as Muddy Waters and Van Morrison ripped it up.

 

LouieB

[GutenAbend]

By far the most underated songwriter today would have to be ALEJANDRO ESCOVEDO!

[Wendy]

By far the most underated songwriter today would have to be ALEJANDRO ESCOVEDO!

[LouieB]

Alejandro is a great songwriter, but I am not sure he is underrated or underappreciated. He is certainly a musicians musician.

 

Just listened to Rhapsody on the way home.

 

LouieB

[Ludwig Von Drake]

The duo Sparks.

 

I also agree with Daniel Bejar and Randy Newman.

[LouieB]

I am still trying to figure out how Randy Newman is underrated...

 

He sold gobs of records, was widely covered by his peers and now has an incredible career scoring movies. None of that points to underrated in my book.

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

I am still trying to figure out how Randy Newman is underrated...

 

He sold gobs of records, was widely covered by his peers and now has an incredible career scoring movies. None of that points to underrated in my book.

 

LouieB

 

Well, has he sold as many albums as The Beatles or The Rolling Stones or blah blah blah? No. Should he have? Yes. Therefore he is underrated. I did allude to that in my first mention of him on page 1.

[LouieB]

Well, has he sold as many albums as The Beatles or The Rolling Stones or blah blah blah? No. Should he have? Yes. Therefore he is underrated. I did allude to that in my first mention of him on page 1.

Okay NOW I get it...you have to sell as many records as the Beatles and the Stones to not be underappreciated. That puts just about everyone in that category then.

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

Okay NOW I get it...you have to sell as many records as the Beatles and the Stones to not be underappreciated. That puts just about everyone in that category then.

 

LouieB

 

Well that isn't what I said, really was it - I was refering specifically to Randy Newman and his talent alongside those groups, not anyone else. You can only put 'everyone' in that category if they are deserving of the same level of fame, surely?

[FourStrongWinds]

Jackson Browne - his early stuff is stunning

 

Graham Nash - often over shadowed by Stills, Crosby and Young but his solo albums are all stellar

 

Paul Weller - it seems like everyones down with him now, and i dunno if he was ever big in the states, but his songwriting is spot on

 

Neal Casal - saw him open for the Cardinals, and everyone was talking through out, too bad for them- his new album is PERFECT

[LouieB]

Well that isn't what I said, really was it - I was refering specifically to Randy Newman and his talent alongside those groups, not anyone else. You can only put 'everyone' in that category if they are deserving of the fame level of fame, surely?

My point is that Randy Newman is very famous, both as a composer of soundtracks, movie songs and even his older singer/songwriter stuff. Numerous artists have covered Randy's songs, to the point that he is a rather wealthy songwriter even if he had only written for others. (Three Dog Night's hit with Mama Told Me not to Come, was huge.) But in fact he produced a reasonable number of his own hits (Short People) and sold just fine on WB until they decided to clean house (which swept away alot of well known artists including Van Morrision.) See this entry in Wikipedia if you don't believe me... I just don't know how anyone could be more successful than Randy Newman was/is unless they were the Beach Boys, Beatles or Rolling Stones. There are any number of songwriters who would kill to have been as widely covered, produced their own albums, written for movies and plays and been given awards by the ton like Newman. The guy isn't under - anything. He may not have Dylan's money, but he ain't all that far behind I bet.

 

edit: Check out this list of covers on The Cover Project and I bet this isn't even close to all the versions of his songs that exist.

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

My point is that Randy Newman is very famous, both as a composer of soundtracks, movie songs and even his older singer/songwriter stuff. Numerous artists have covered Randy's songs, to the point that he is a rather wealthy songwriter even if he had only written for others. (Three Dog Night's hit with Mama Told Me not to Come, was huge.) But in fact he produced a reasonable number of his own hits (Short People) and sold just fine on WB until they decided to clean house (which swept away alot of well known artists including Van Morrision.) See this entry in Wikipedia if you don't believe me... I just don't know how anyone could be more successful than Randy Newman was/is unless they were the Beach Boys, Beatles or Rolling Stones. There are any number of songwriters who would kill to have been as widely covered, produced their own albums, written for movies and plays and been given awards by the ton like Newman. The guy isn't under - anything. He may not have Dylan's money, but he ain't all that far behind I bet.

 

LouieB

 

Actually I was going to quote wikipedia in my defence. How exactly can these facts be concidered as successful?:

His 1968 debut album, Randy Newman, never dented the Billboard Top 200.

12 Songs, which abandoned the elaborate arrangements of his first album for a more stripped-down sound that showcased Newman's piano. 12 Songs was critically acclaimed, but again found little commercial success

The following year, Randy Newman Live cemented his cult following and became his first LP to appear in the Billboard charts, at #191.

1972's Sail Away reached #163 on Billboard,

 

Short People did well, mainly due to the single, then he dropped off the radar again with Born Again. Yes, he's scored some big disney films, but he hasn't been rewarded much for them - he's only got 1 oscar, even though he's been nominated a lot - and really few people would remark on the scores to those films as being of any real worth (mainly cos they aren't - he openly admits that he does them to pay the bills).

 

Anyway, we could argue all day about whether he's successful or not. My point is that he is not as successful as the big acts, and he should be. Surely you can see my viewpoint, even if you don't agree that he is deserving of it or not?

[Synthesizer Patel]

edit: Check out this list of covers on The Cover Project and I bet this isn't even close to all the versions of his songs that exist.

LouieB

 

Even if there were 10,000 covers of his songs, ultimately that only amounts to 10,000 people who have appreciated them - or do musicians levels of appreciation count 50 to 1 to the ordinary person? or what figure exactly? I think this whole thread refers to the general public, not who rates who in the music industry.

[LouieB]

Actually I was going to quote wikipedia in my defence. How exactly can these facts be concidered as successful?:

Short People did well, mainly due to the single, then he dropped off the radar again with Born Again. Yes, he's scored some big disney films, but he hasn't been rewarded much for them - he's only got 1 oscar, even though he's been nominated a lot - and really few people would remark on the scores to those films as being of any real worth (mainly cos they aren't - he openly admits that he does them to pay the bills).

 

Anyway, we could argue all day about whether he's successful or not. My point is that he is not as successful as the big acts, and he should be. Surely you can see my viewpoint, even if you don't agree that he is deserving of it or not?

Well if you want to point out that his albums did only so so when first released, okay fine. But his albums are still in print and the fact that as a new artist he cracked the Billboard charts in any event is pretty darned good compared to many songwriters who NEVER crack the Billboard charts at all.

 

Hasn't been rewarded (first off read the entire entry, he has written more than just Disney films)?? He is one of the most successful contemporary soundtrack composers there is. I am sure he isn't getting just a few dollars for these soundtracks and I am willing to bet they sell pretty well too (just being nominated is a pretty big honor and financially worthwhile.)

 

Even if there were 10,000 covers of his songs, ultimately that only amounts to 10,000 people who have appreciated them - or do musicians levels of appreciation count 50 to 1 to the ordinary person? or what figure exactly? I think this whole thread refers to the general public, not who rates who in the music industry.

Maybe you weren't alive when some of these songs were covered, but the Three Dog Night version was huge. (The Three Dog Night album was one of the first things I ever bought myself, if I have to admit it.) My point is that his songs have gotten lots of exposure from being covered on all sides by a variety of different singers from many types of genres. While not everyone who has heard these tracks may know that they are written by Randy Newman, they have heard his songs alot.

 

All of you want to convince me Randy Newman is some sort of cult artist, with little or no following, but I bet he lives in a huge mansion in LA and gets checks in the mail about every day from one publisher or another. I don't believe he is living in some small apartment in Austin or still traveling the folk circuit endlessly; the guy is a huge success by any standards. Hell if all he had ever written was "You got a friend in me", he would be considered a success. EVery kid in America knew that song for awhile.

 

(Let's get back on subject....how about Shel Silverstein, Tom Russell, John Prine...oh yea, we talked about him, Phil Ochs, Tim Harden, etc. etc. )

 

LouieB

[Synthesizer Patel]

Well if you want to point out that his albums did only so so when first released, okay fine. But his albums are still in print and the fact that as a new artist he cracked the Billboard charts in any event is pretty darned good compared to many songwriters who NEVER crack the Billboard charts at all.

 

Hasn't been rewarded (first off read the entire entry, he has written more than just Disney films)?? He is one of the most successful contemporary soundtrack composers there is. I am sure he isn't getting just a few dollars for these soundtracks and I am willing to bet they sell pretty well too (just being nominated is a pretty big honor and financially worthwhile.)

 

Maybe you weren't alive when some of these songs were covered, but the Three Dog Night version was huge. (The Three Dog Night album was one of the first things I ever bought myself, if I have to admit it.) My point is that his songs have gotten lots of exposure from being covered on all sides by a variety of different singers from many types of genres. While not everyone who has heard these tracks may know that they are written by Randy Newman, they have heard his songs alot.

 

All of you want to convince me Randy Newman is some sort of cult artist, with little or no following, but I bet he lives in a huge mansion in LA and gets checks in the mail about every day from one publisher or another. I don't believe he is living in some small apartment in Austin or still traveling the folk circuit endlessly; the guy is a huge success by any standards. Hell if all he had ever written was "You got a friend in me", he would be considered a success. EVery kid in America knew that song for awhile.

 

(Let's get back on subject....how about Shel Silverstein, Tom Russell, John Prine...oh yea, we talked about him, Phil Ochs, Tim Harden, etc. etc. )

 

LouieB

 

Seeing as I'm the only one arguing with you about this. I'd just like to make it clear that I do not think that Randy Newman is a cult artist. I just don't think he is as well known as the biggest stars who have a comparable level of talent. I'm not sure why you find that so hard to grasp. To follow on from what you said - If he lives in a big mansion then as long as it's as big as Paul McCartney's one then I'm happy, if not, then I'm not. Are you saying he is as huge as Paul McCartney? No, I assume not. I think he should be. Therefore I think he is underrated. That is what the thread is - not unknown songwriters.

 

By the way, if you continue your view on this whole thing, there is no point in talking about Tim Hardin seeing, for example, as most people must (by your own standards) be more than aware of him, as Scott Walker covered a couple of his songs on his first two solo albums (both of which went to no. 1 in the album charts), he was also covered by Rod Stewart and If I Were A Carpenter is pretty much a musical standard isn't it?

 

Actually, I've thought of another person - Emitt Rhodes. Now he IS unknown and underrated too!

[LouieB]

[

Seeing as I'm the only one arguing with you about this. I'd just like to make it clear that I do not think that Randy Newman is a cult artist. I just don't think he is as well known as the biggest stars who have a comparable level of talent. I'm not sure why you find that so hard to grasp. To follow on from what you said - If he lives in a big mansion then as long as it's as big as Paul McCartney's one then I'm happy, if not, then I'm not. Are you saying he is as huge as Paul McCartney? No, I assume not. I think he should be. Therefore I think he is underrated. That is what the thread is - not unknown songwriters.

 

By the way, if you continue your view on this whole thing, there is no point in talking about Tim Hardin seeing, for example, as most people must (by your own standards) be more than aware of him, as Scott Walker covered a couple of his songs on his first two solo albums (both of which went to no. 1 in the album charts), he was also covered by Rod Stewart and If I Were A Carpenter is pretty much a musical standard isn't it?

 

Actually, I've thought of another person - Emitt Rhodes. Now he IS unknown and underrated too!

yea, I guess it is just you and me. Looked like more than that, so let the fun continue. I don't know how big a mansion Randy lives in (I will get right on it after I get done with this posting...), but if you discount the Beatles material I am gonna bet that Randy Newman is every bit as rich as Paul McCartney's post Beatles career. Yea, Okay Wings sold a shitload of albums, but McCartney didn't score dozens of movies. In fact more artists have covered Randy Newman than have covered post-Beatles McCartney I am sure.

 

Actually since Scott Walker is a cult artist, his covering of Tom Hardin hardly qualifies as making Tom a big name. In fact it was Johnny Cash's cover of that song that helped him have enough money to buy enough heroin to kill himself. Hardly anyone outside of our circles knows or cares about Scott Walker. Yes, that song is a standard, but it is pretty much all that brought Tim into mainstream sucess. (see the Covers Project for this song too... Johnny and Bobby both are responsible I guess.)

 

Emmitt Rhodes is unknown and underrated and let's keep it that way.

 

LouieB