New new election thread

[uncle wilco]

I am a Christian. I've read the book, participated in a study regarding it. It's a nice read but hardly of any depth.

 

It IS marketed as a self-help book; it uses many self-help techniques. It does not offer anything new in terms of study; it borrows quite liberally for pre-existing studies and books that are as altruistic as you put it.

 

The Purpose Driven Life is, instead, marketed and packaged. It is a McChurch approach to bible study. It certainly doesn't promote further study; instead it's often pitched to those who go through the 40 days get a diploma from any further consideration.

 

The message and the messenger should be viewed together. In a sense, I have more problems with Rick Warren than, say, Dr. Phil because each are basically doing the same thing: using their position as a person of authority in order to market themselves as a franchise. Using faith as a selling point seems a bit more predatory to me.

well, you obviously percieve things differently than i do. this book is not a be all and end all. it does not cover all there is regarding incorporating faith into everyday life. but it is a great introduction into doing so. you are only going to get what you put into it. if your faith journey stops at rick warren's book, then you aren't really interested in seeking "truth", but are more likely just a member of oprah's book club crossing this book off your list and ready to delve into the next deepak chopra offering or whatever new guru she happens to be pimping.

 

just because i value the book doesn't mean i also value the study guide, key chain, bookmarks, coffee cup, etc. i'm not seeking to be brand concious, i'm seeking truth. and that is found in many more places than one particular book by a certain rick warren. there are numerous resources by numerous sources for those wishing to seek things out for themselves. c.s. lewis, erwin mcmanus, donald miller, etc. are but a few of many others also worthy of checking out. again, i could care less what rick says or does going forward. he wrote a book, it was good. end of story.

[Central Scrutinizer]

If someone says something good and worthwhile, who cares about why he says that?

 

For instance, if I read his book, and it helps me or fulfills me in some way, why should I care what he does with the book or what his aim for the book was?

That's a good point. You're two for two! What is good and worthwhile is the result of how the message is interpreted. I can sell you a $30 book with a free set of Ginzu knives, the theme of which is "don't kill people." Or I could tell you "don't kill people." Both messages are the same; one has a motive (unless, you're hovering over the second person with a Ginzu knife).

[Central Scrutinizer]

well, you obviously percieve things differently than i do. this book is not a be all and end all. it does not cover all there is regarding incorporating faith into everyday life. but it is a great introduction into doing so. you are only going to get what you put into it. if your faith journey stops at rick warren's book, then you aren't really interested in seeking "truth", but are more likely just a member of oprah's book club crossing this book off your list and ready to delve into the next deepak chopra offering or whatever new guru she happens to be pimping.

 

just because i value the book doesn't mean i also value the study guide, key chain, bookmarks, coffe cup, etc. i'm not seeking to be brand concious, i'm seeking truth. and that is found in many more places than one particular book by a certain rick warren. there are numerous resources by numerous sources for those wishing to seek things out for themselves. again, i could care less what rick says or does going forward. he wrote a book, it was good. end of story.

I understand what you're saying and you're right. But divorced of the message, I see a bit of the snake oil in this and it rubs me the wrong way, because I've seen fair minded people fall prey to it -- buying the PDL devotional, and the study guide etc. etc. because they may be grateful of the message and taking a sort of "fan approach" (concert T-shirt, obscure EP for sale etc.). The people who are susceptible are referred biblically as "sheep" and tend to blindly follow a shepherd.

[uncle wilco]

I understand what you're saying and you're right. But divorced of the message, I see a bit of the snake oil in this and it rubs me the wrong way, because I've seen fair minded people fall prey to it -- buying the PDL devotional, and the study guide etc. etc. because they may be grateful of the message and taking a sort of "fan approach" (concert T-shirt, obscure EP for sale etc.). The people who are susceptible are referred biblically as "sheep" and tend to blindly follow a shepherd.

 

dude, you are totally describing the "obama" brand.

 

like...totally

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

dude, you are totally describing the "obama" brand.

 

like...totally

 

Agreed. Certainly one of the creepier things about this election -- not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

In hindsight ... there are similarities to Bush supporters in 2000 and Obama's in 2008 as far as form over substance.

[Moe_Syzlak]

dude, you are totally describing the "obama" brand.

 

like...totally

 

Since this IS the election thread and not about faith, I'll take issue with this point. I would argue that the true "sheep" are the ones that buy that all Obama supporters are falling for some brand of "hope." I watch very little of Obama's speeches and instead focus on his stance on issues. But I will not deny that having a leader that inspires people is not necessarily a bad thing to me. Maybe dig a little deeper than the GOP talking points to understand that informed and well-reasoned voters may have a different view of what's good for America than you do and show some respect rather than blindly applying labels to what appears to be a majority of the country (and the world for that matter).

[Dreamin']

Yes, an oldie but a goody.

 

And besides, I once fell in love with Nova Scotia, I would love to rekindle that relationship.

I fell in love with Nova Scotia, too. It's beautiful and the people are really funny and cool.

 

[bobbob1313]

Since this IS the election thread and not about faith, I'll take issue with this point. I would argue that the true "sheep" are the ones that buy that all Obama supporters are falling for some brand of "hope." I watch very little of Obama's speeches and instead focus on his stance on issues. But I will not deny that having a leader that inspires people is not necessarily a bad thing to me. Maybe dig a little deeper than the GOP talking points to understand that informed and well-reasoned voters may have a different view of what's good for America than you do and show some respect rather than blindly applying labels to what appears to be a majority of the country (and the world for that matter).

 

Fair points, but I also don't think it's a stretch or unfair to say that many of Obama's supporters are definitely sheep. You wouldn't have any problem with me saying that about, say Bush or McCain supporters, but if someone says it about Obama, it's just a GOP talking point.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Fair points, but I also don't think it's a stretch or unfair to say that many of Obama's supporters are definitely sheep. You wouldn't have any problem with me saying that about, say Bush or McCain supporters, but if someone says it about Obama, it's just a GOP talking point.

That's actually wrong. I defend McCain (as does Obama BTW) against unfair attacks. The political discourse in this country is now on par with the lowest of the low Red Sox fans vs. Yankees fans. I will continually point out when I feel like unfair generalizations and dirty politics are taking over. If there is a place to direct scorn, I think it is at the media (as someone who works in that world) for perpetuating much of this. I realized we were lost when when I saw (on MSNBC I believe) a post Gore/W debate focus group asked -- I shit you not -- "who would rather go to a BBQ with?" Is this really where we are!?! I would never accuse those that voted for W as only doing so because he looks like more fun at BBQ, however. This is not a competition. If your guy wins and my guy loses, we still have a country we BOTH want to be as good as it can be. Let's get over ourselves and have a more intelligent debate.

[uncle wilco]

Since this IS the election thread and not about faith, I'll take issue with this point. I would argue that the true "sheep" are the ones that buy that all Obama supporters are falling for some brand of "hope." I watch very little of Obama's speeches and instead focus on his stance on issues. But I will not deny that having a leader that inspires people is not necessarily a bad thing to me. Maybe dig a little deeper than the GOP talking points to understand that informed and well-reasoned voters may have a different view of what's good for America than you do and show some respect rather than blindly applying labels to what appears to be a majority of the country (and the world for that matter).

 

I'll take issue with this point. I would argue that the true "sheep" are the ones that buy all the B.S. Obama utters and who fall for some brand of "hope." I watch very little of Obama's speeches and instead focus on his handsome visage and his words, which are like butter melting all over me like a warm waffle soaked in syrup..mmmmm....gooood. I will not deny that having a leader that inspires people is like...totally awesome. Maybe if I dug a little deeper than the tired old Dem talking points I would understand that informed and well-reasoned voters do exist and that although they may have a different view than me, they aren't bad people that actually want what's good for America too. Maybe then we could all show some respect rather than blindly applying labels.

 

it goes both ways.

[Moe_Syzlak]

I'll take issue with this point. I would argue that the true "sheep" are the ones that buy all the B.S. Obama utters and who fall for some brand of "hope." I watch very little of Obama's speeches and instead focus on his handsome visage and his words, which are like butter melting all over me like a warm waffle soaked in syrup..mmmmm....gooood. I will not deny that having a leader that inspires people is like...totally awesome. Maybe if I dug a little deeper than the tired old Dem talking points I would understand that informed and well-reasoned voters do exist and that although they may have a different view than me, they aren't bad people who actually want what's good for America too. Maybe then we could all show some respect rather than blindly applying labels.

 

it goes both ways.

*sigh*

 

Case in point.

 

It DOES go both ways. And, if you'll read my post above, you'll see that I don't tolerate the BS from either side and I try my best not only to not perpetuate it, but also to call people on it when I see it.

[uncle wilco]

*sigh*

 

Case in point.

 

i don't know about you, but a sense of humor is what keeps my sanity in check.

 

obsessing over things i can't control isn't productive. i'd rather have a laugh instead from time to time.

 

no offense.

[bobbob1313]

That's actually wrong. I defend McCain (as does Obama BTW) against unfair attacks. The political discourse in this country is now on par with the lowest of the low Red Sox fans vs. Yankees fans. I will continually point out when I feel like unfair generalizations and dirty politics are taking over. If there is a place to direct scorn, I think it is at the media (as someone who works in that world) for perpetuating much of this. I realized we were lost when when I saw (on MSNBC I believe) a post Gore/W debate focus group asked -- I shit you not -- "who would rather go to a BBQ with?" Is this really where we are!?! I would never accuse those that voted for W as only doing so because he looks like more fun at BBQ, however. This is not a competition. If your guy wins and my guy loses, we still have a country we BOTH want to be as good as it can be. Let's get over ourselves and have a more intelligent debate.

 

Thats a pretty excellent post, there.

[mfwahl]

If any of my friends that I barbecue with became President, I'd really be scared

[Central Scrutinizer]

If any of my friends that I barbecue with became President, I'd really be scared

Because they would keep squirting lighter fluid on Iraq?

[Duck-Billed Catechist]

Anyone see the NBC ads comparing their campaign coverage with their coverage of the Olympics? Wow.

[bobbob1313]

No, but I was just thinking about how much I'm going to miss Tim Russert's election coverage. He was the best...

[Good Old Neon]

obsessing over things i can't control isn't productive. i'd rather have a laugh instead from time to time.

 

I cannot totally relate to this, though in practice, I completely suck at it. Which is why I love the following quote from, Pema Chodron, a Buddhist nun and personal hero of sorts.

 

The quote is taken from an interview conducted by Bill Moyers:

 

(Chodron is referring here to the teachings of the Buddhist sage, Shantideva)

 

 

[bobbob1313]

So if someone is texting, I should wrap my eyes in leather and not their phone, or what?

[Central Scrutinizer]

So if someone is texting, I should wrap my eyes in leather and not their phone, or what?

I'm going to go buy a leather case for my iPhone!

[bobbob1313]

I got the rubber one that looks like a grenade.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I got the rubber one that looks like a grenade.

I never texted until I got my iPhone. I downloaded an app last night that emits a colored strobe effect. I can't wait to use it at a concert!

[John Smith]

I disagree with those who say all Obama supporters are sheep, or that Obama is an empty suit devoid of Ideas. Every political candidate has some lemmings who will follow them anywhere under any circumstances. How large a percentage of their followers that is depends on the candidate. Obama is no different. Some of his followers are the wide eyed worshipers, some are those who are going to vote Dem regardless of whether it is Obama or someone else. Ditto for McCain, though I would venture to say that McCain probably has more voters who will vote R under any circumstances than he has voters who will follow him regardless of what he does. I tend to think that Obama

[bobbob1313]

So people who do support Obama don't think he's an empty suit, and those who don't think he is.

 

He's a politician, so I'll probably side more with the latter, though the truth is more likely somewhere in the middle. He's very good at being a politician, because he's convinced so many people that he isn't a politician, but something more. But he's also not completely devoid of value because of that.

[uncle wilco]

So the analogy is, if you work with your mind, instead of trying to change everything on the outside, that's how your temper will cool down.