Wilco and atheism

[Panther]

I personally have already answered this to the previous page. Apparently you don't mind having a discussion, or answering relevant points?

don't mind at all, "I personally have already answered this" I doubt that lol

I repeat: what is the logic of thinking there is a creator because there's a creation?

 

Your creator is what, exactly? A creation, too? Who created the creator? Why a creation couldn't be self-created?

 

I do not know and neither do you but I am not an absolutist I dont beilve GOD is a diety the way religions would have you think. Its an incomprihensible word that trumps everything it is the void itself. You don't know the answer to that question either so you don't want to say you beilve in GOD but I think this is all semantics really you do beilive in GOD one way or the other is what I think.

 

Doesn't it sound obvious to you that God is just something the man conceived for the only reason he doesn't find answers to questions which are beyond his perceptive faculties?

 

No, This is certainly a phase that I went threw in the seventh grade when I was rebelling against all conventional wisdom and all religions but I have a much more mature outlook now.

Man did not conceive the GOD notion because he did not understand but instead the fact that he does not understand is evidence of a higher wisdom, it might be the illiterate light Im not saying it can talk.

 

And isn't it obvious to you that so far, only science brougth answers to our questions since the man exists?

 

No I disagree philoshpy and metaphsyics is just a valueble its just a diffrent viewpoint.

Science is the study of what is and how it wrks and it is a vauled one but it is not life itself it is uncovering life itself. I have never made an argument against the importance of science. Science and GOD are not in conflict GOD is science. Science is based on theories threw a human perspective when a new idea is confirmed it could possible destroy centuries of theories , science is a what we know so far system, it has its place.

 

If there must be a logic, it's to think that science is the only way to find answers.

 

Thats true but if someone has the ability to be a medium between the afterlife and now is it not through a science.

Are thier not sceinces that we do not understand? I would say science is a way to find out how things wrk it is not the reason things wrk themselves that reason is GOD.

 

Personally, I define my atheism like this: I have no need to believe in God, there is no reason to believe in.

 

Perosnally I define my belief in GOD as this their is a huge reason to believe in GOD , what the fuck is going on here? not good enuff?

 

The belief in God is only a matter of culture and tradition. As long as it's peaceful, no problem with me. I would probably be Christian if I had evolved in a Christian environment. But it happened I grew up in France, where the 20th Century was dominated, culturally, by a big intellectual wave of anti-Christianism, due to some bad images of the Church in our country.

 

thats not true sometimes its a matter of culture or tradition but your minimizing it and again making the sceince vs religion argument which logically science can win.

But the sceince vs GOD argument dosent make sense GOD is science.

 

We had some great personas, though: very lately we lost Soeur Emmanuelle, who was 99. She incarnated the best of what the Church should be: generosity, help for the poor, for the helpless, etc, etc

 

But in the 20th Century, a lot of young people rebelled against the Church.

 

so have I but thats not about GOD the church is the false prohet of GOD im not denying that.

 

A song of Jacques Brel gives a pretty good idea of this rebellion : here's a clip with English subtitles:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7G6XOU3sE4

 

PS: excuse my odd english at times (I'm aware of it!)

[Panther]

Well, most books make sense as stories. Not sure if many people actually go around saying the Bible doesn't "make sense" except perhaps in its claims over reality and perhaps its problems with internal consistency. But sure, the storyline is pretty straight-forward.

 

No thats not what I mean't. The argument was how can the bible be true. Christians will obviously say its the word of GOD thats fine.

My point is that they are almost right although their has been editing for evil purposes the just of the bible including the devil is a metaphor for the world and it makes sesne.

When it says this world is satans kingdom it makes sesne, allot of it can be aplieed to moderntimes. Wheather or not it has the ability ot peak into the future I don't know.

But I like to think that the notion of the messiah returning followed by a thousand yrs of peace is possible and it will make sesne if it is christ consiousness that returns.

[Guest Jules]

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

[Littlebear]

Perosnally I define my belief in GOD as this their is a huge reason to believe in GOD , what the fuck is going on here? not good enuff?

 

The fuck that is going on is a result of an evolution since the start of Life millions of centuries ago.

 

I'm quite surprised at the fact that so many people wondering about the "why" aren't more interested in the observation of the Wild Nature (before the Human kind built cities, with which his God has nothing to do), that is the early state of all.

 

If there's a religious act, it's to watch and listen to the wild environment, to observe the Nature, to know more about the life of plants and animals, and to observe the sky and the universe, outside the Earth.

 

In short, the only religious people of this Earth are the scientists. At least, they're serious, and know that to find bits of answers, you have to observe things seriously, instead of creating an abstract world of suppositions built books after books over the centuries.

 

Christianity and other beliefs are obviously traditional. It's something the Human kind conceived and created.

 

Not to offend anyone, but to me, it's just an old thing. And I wish it could get old faster than it currently does. But the Human kind is like that: tied to traditions, cultures, habits, and all that.

 

I've read someone here asking about "the soul". To that person, the notion of "soul" is religious. But "soul" is also a notion we created. Most people talking about the soul, talk about their heart, their emotion, their sensibility, and something they want to believe in. It's abstract.

 

We could change our world just changing some words. But we're used to some words and won't change them. So we keep using "Christ", "God", "soul", and all things related to our culture and tradition. Many people are just influenced like that. Life is short. Between birth and death, do we have so much time to change our traditions? We don't make such effort, we don't ask all the time, life is full of many things, and we don't give all of our time to the "why". We want to be happy, we need to find a job, etc, etc

 

All I know is that I can't asking about "why this?" seriously as long as I don't observe things seriously. And I know science is more serious than religion. Religion is mysticism, and I don't like mysticism much. It leads to adoration, and fanatism, like the other people have idols or kings, things like that. Another human habit, to adore and admire "gods" (of any kind).

 

I wish people could only love Life. When we see all these cities and cars, and pollution around, it's clear that the Human kind doesn't know how to love Life.

 

If there's a God, it's Life, and we just keep destroying it.

[kwall]

Well sure. And I don't think Science should replace Religion. But I was wondering why you need Religion at all for those philosophical questions?

obviously, you don't need it.

 

I mean, can't you just read... philosophy? Or talk about it with friends? Or just decide what you want to believe on your own?

of course. i wonder though - what if you talk about it with friends and you come up with some notions that you all basically agree on that make sense to you. and you decide to live your life based on these notions. and through your conversations with other people, they see the wisdom in your notions. is this now a Religion? what do you need it for?

 

You don't really need the whole mythological side of things, all of the characters and codes of conduct, do you?

nope.

 

And if no one can know a definitive objective answer for this kind of stuff then why bother at all? Why not just decide you believe in yourself and your own happiness and that is enough and live your life?

i did that for many years and it turned out to not be enough for me. to each his own.

 

They say that Religion fills in the "Why", but the universe doesn't have a reason.

that's your unprovable belief. it's cool, i'm not attacking you. i don't know if it has a reason either.

[kwall]

I wish people could only love Life.

 

If there's a God, it's Life, and we just keep destroying it.

be careful - you're coming dangerously close to developing a religious belief there.

[TheMaker]

Not at all, actually.

 

i did that for many years and it turned out to not be enough for me. to each his own.

 

That's really, really tragic. My condolences.

[kwall]

Not at all, actually.

[TheMaker]

Sure sounds like it!

[Atticus]

What the hell is this thread about again? Please explain.

[Spawn's dad]

What the hell is this thread about again? Please explain.

 

 

[M. (hristine]

"The greatest thing to happen to Christmas since Jesus."

 

 

I was just thinking about this thread/The Maker/kwall yesterday.

[jakobnicholas]

Kinda want to add my 2 cents.

 

I have a friend who's an atheist. We go round and round sometimes, but not in a mean or heated way. I understand why he feels the way he does, but I wish he'd be a believer.

 

I think many non-believers think that believers hate them or judge them or think badly of them. I don't think that's true with most believers. To me, it's just sad that someone doesn't believe. I feel bad for the person because I think there's so much for that person to gain by following and believing in Jesus. I think they're missing out on a LOT.

 

 

But, honest to goodness, my friendship doesn't change, nor do I impose my beliefs onto him. And we can both live our lives and interact in a normal, firendly way. But I have prayed for him.

[mfwahl]

I feel bad for the person because I think there's so much for that person to gain by following and believing in Jesus. I think they're missing out on a LOT.

I get where you're coming from but this is kind of offensive.

[Good Old Neon]

I feel bad for the person because I think there's so much for that person to gain by following and believing in Jesus. I think they're missing out on a LOT.

 

Insofar as I

[Moe_Syzlak]

I get where you're coming from but this is kind of offensive.

Agreed. And while the believers that hate, judge or think badly of atheists/agnostics may be a vocal minority, they reflect badly on the entire flock, IMO (as the intolerant atheists reflect poorly on all atheists). I wish more Christians would stand up to the Dobsons and Robertsons of the world, not to mention the Phelps.

[EL the Famous]

way to go, gary.

[jakobnicholas]

Insofar as I

[MattZ]

Why do atheists get so all undies-in-a-bunch about someone who believes in Jesus?

 

Because people who believe in Jesus, by definition, believe I am going to hell for being Jewish. And I can't help who my parents are. You can tell me that you don't believe this to be the case, but you are deviating from the teachings of your religion. So, I am not sure what you are basing that opinion on.

 

EDIT: (way to go, gary)

[bobfrombob]

It's wierd to me how my atheist friend, and many atheists on this board, seem so interested in arguing against or ridiculing those who believe in God. I told my friend that, frankly, I don't care how he believes. I don't care how you all believe. Why do atheists get so all undies-in-a-bunch about someone who believes in Jesus?

I'm mostly in the closet as an atheist. Whatever you believe in doesn't bother me. I'm fine with that. I feel no need to ridicule you.

 

To answer your question, I suspect some atheists feel a need to defend their beliefs, or non-belief, when the "true believers" ram their beliefs down our throats. From every thing you say, you are not one of those, but I think that's where the phenomenon you describe comes from.

[jakobnicholas]

Because people who believe in Jesus, by definition, believe I am going to hell for being Jewish. And I can't help who my parents are. You can tell me that you don't believe this to be the case, but you are deviating from the teachings of your religion. So, I am not sure what you are basing that opinion on.

 

EDIT: (way to go, gary)

 

 

I'm Catholic, and if you are saying Catholics are taught to believe that Jews are going to Hell, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

Catholics are taught not to judge anyone and we do not know who will or will not go to Hell.

[MattZ]

Catholics are taught not to judge anyone and we do not know who will or will not go to Hell.

 

Thanks man. I appreciate it.

 

Really not trying to start another round of this debate, just trying to answer your question honestly since you asked. Apparently, different Catholics that I have met have different opinions on this issue.

[Good Old Neon]

Catholics are taught not to judge anyone and we do not know who will or will not go to Hell.

 

No, really?

 

You might want to copy the Vatican on that memo. Historically, The Catholic Church

[lost highway]

I get where you're coming from but this is kind of offensive.

 

I thought it was funny.

 

But seriously, I had a Sociology professor who either created or quoted (can't recall) the phrase: "You can tell someone believes something when they behave as if it were true."

 

The evangelical instinct goes back and forth for me. Is it the result of an insecurity, the human need to have belief confirmed in the experience of every peer, or is it truly an effort to share something you believe is true and good for everyone? I think neither an atheist nor a believer can answer that question accurately.

 

In my close experience with Buddhists (having been one) and Jews (having several in my family), I've seen little of this evangelical instinct in them. I find the idea of a religious group that is generally indifferent to converting others to be very appealing. That's kind of how I approach my diet.

[ikol]

No, really?

 

You might want to copy the Vatican on that memo. Historically, The Catholic Church