Election thread

[bjorn_skurj]

Please do... I won't skip class, I promise perfezzor. Just as long as "lesson #1" includes your definitive proof that George Bush lied to this country to drag us into a war.

There may never be definitive proof. Forgive us our suspicions.

[fatheadfred]

And this comes back to the reason nothing ever really changes. Rather than doing the right thing, both parties do the electable thing.

 

And there's nothing to gain from not being partisanned. Both parties are rooting for a kind of constant, orwellian war between the two parties to keep them both in control.

Again, we agree. The other parties failed miserably in providing an alternative. It is hard to compete with the big two. It just seems that the GOP is going one way (oil and imperialism) and the Donks the other (alt. energy linked with American innovation and production). They both have campaign promises. To say neither will follow through is part our fault as citizens. Me and you are involved in trying to understand it, but this pales in comparison to the 70% that has no consideration for what is going on in America.

[bobbob1313]

They are both moving in opposite directions on a treadmill, maybe. It's all talk until we actually see something done by the democrats regarding oil...

[fatheadfred]

I have not suggested that President Bush was 100% perfect with the war. Might I suggest that the chief role for bombers at this point might be in Afghanistan? If you are also opposed to action in Afghanistan, I fear that it may be you who has been in a coma.

 

I totally get your point about the B-2's, though girlfriend. They're actually running a brain scan on you as they pass over. Dick Cheney wants to know your thoughts.

 

And Saudi Arabia. And when Bushie said let's go to war in Iraq, those of us with critical thinking skills said, "huh?"

 

If you can define action as covert ops, yes. The use of troops to patrol civilians has netted some deaths of some higher up terrorists, but at what expense to our stance as a nation worldwide.

[sweetheart-mine]

Jesus, in a way I hope Bush and Cheney were lying. If they were that gullible to go to war on the flimsy evidence they had ... oy.

[ShuckOwens]

There may never be definitive proof. Forgive us our suspicions.

Suspicions are fine... healthy... smart. Stating it as fact with no definitive proof however, something different. I don't post here oftten, but what I read is a whole lot of people stating things as fact with no definitive proof. Seldom does someone state something like: "well, I think Bush may have lied to get us into this mess."

 

There's good news though... I like Wilco, and have been attending live shows to see Jeff perform since '92.

[mountain bed]

Well, I gotta say HRC KILLED tonight. One hell of a speech. If all of the bitter Hill supporters didn't get convinced tonight then there's just no reaching them.

 

She's a pretty big person right now for what she did in my opinion. That had to be a tough thing to do - but she did it, and did it well.

[OOO]

Well, I gotta say HRC KILLED tonight. One hell of a speech. If all of the bitter Hill supporters didn't get convinced tonight then there's just no reaching them.

 

She's a pretty big person right now for what she did in my opinion. That had to be a tough thing to do - but she did it, and did it well.

 

You must feel pretty terrible now about that anti-Hillary video you made now. Tsk tsk tsk.

[Edie]

Do we have a separate thread to talk about the Denver Convention, or do we do it here?

 

Supposedly here

 

Well, I gotta say HRC KILLED tonight. One hell of a speech. If all of the bitter Hill supporters didn't get convinced tonight then there's just no reaching them.

 

She's a pretty big person right now for what she did in my opinion. That had to be a tough thing to do - but she did it, and did it well.

 

Agreed. I think that she did a lot to move her supporters, righty doubters on CNN and Fox aside.

[mountain bed]

You must feel pretty terrible now about that anti-Hillary video you made now. Tsk tsk tsk.

I made? All I did was make a suggestion man.

 

I thought I was gonna die when they were asking the Ragin' Cajun about what the speech would be like and he said "She's gonna be cool, calm and collected".

[tugmoose]

I HATE that moving, virtual background on the stage at the Dem. Convention. Looks crappy, cheesy, and makes the speakers look crappy, cheesy.

 

So I'm voting McCain.

[ih8music]

this thread reminds me of the danger of being away from VC for 24 hrs. woah.

[ikol]

So did we ever decide which candidate loves his wife more?

[Central Scrutinizer]

They are both moving in opposite directions on a treadmill, maybe. It's all talk until we actually see something done by the democrats regarding oil...

More like the analogy of the plane on a treadmill never taking off (mythbusters busted that one).

 

What do you mean something done regarding oil? You mean giving up drilling rights in environmentally sensitive areas? Or an energy policy that moves us away from oil and towards alternative sources (and not just ethanol). Oil is a bipartisan boondoggle, and someone(s) is (are) going to have to be courageous enough to make that issue the defining moment of his/her political career. It's easy to make Gore an environemtal god/pariah but at least someone moved the discussion forward enough to drag all but the country's remnants into realizing we have a problem.

 

Well, I gotta say HRC KILLED tonight. One hell of a speech. If all of the bitter Hill supporters didn't get convinced tonight then there's just no reaching them.

 

She's a pretty big person right now for what she did in my opinion. That had to be a tough thing to do - but she did it, and did it well.

She's the same person she's been through it all -- through the attacks both personal and political. It's substance over form, warts and all. She will make an excellent president someday.

 

So did we ever decide which candidate loves his wife more?

John Edwards. He loves his wife sooo much that his love overflowed to other women.

[MrRain422]

There is a lot of evidence of lying. It can't be elevated to the level of "proof" because of destroyed evidence and refusal to testify to Congress. To suggest that there is no proof because investigations have been continually resisted is pretty backwards thinking, IMO. There is a ton of evidence that apparently adds up to nothing to some of you, simply because those that are implicated have attempted to cover it up at every stuff. If any of you are curious though, here are some good places to start:

1) Downing Street Memo

2) Habbush Letter

[John Smith]

And Saudi Arabia. And when Bushie said let's go to war in Iraq, those of us with critical thinking skills said, "huh?"

 

If you can define action as covert ops, yes. The use of troops to patrol civilians has netted some deaths of some higher up terrorists, but at what expense to our stance as a nation worldwide.

 

You know I still remember way back in 2002 discussing this with my brother in law. And I suggested that we do something about the Saudi's since the majority of the bombers were saudi and it appears as though the Saudi government has created or allowed conditions to incubate in their country that gets these people fired up enough to attack us and others. He totally agreed with me about Saudi Arabia being the problem totally agreed that Iraq had nothing to do with 911 but still was in favor of attacking Iraq and doing nothing about Saudi Arabia. His reasoning was that Saudi Arabia are our friends and we had to attack someone, so we might as well attack Iraq. Brilliant.

 

As to the whole Bush lied argument. If you believe it you believe it, if you don't you never will, regardless of the evidence, and there has been mountains of evidence thus far. One could even argue that Bush has admitted lying when he said the whole bit about Iraq trying to buy yellow cake should not have been in the state of the union, especially since the adminsitration knew for months that the statement was false...is that a lie? Or a simple mistake? Annd it is definately just the tip of the iceberg. But even if you don't believe what evidence (anecdotal or actual physical) has been presented, the old saying If it looks like a duck... definately applies.

[mfwahl]

I had the opposite debate with people on another board, and I still never really had an answer to my main question:

 

What makes someone an "elitist" in politics? Neither of them is in touch with the concerns of the everyday American, and if it comes down to wealth, then sure McCain is wealthier, but at some point, money isn't a concern, and I'd say the Obama's are probably at that point.

These guys are running to be the president of the United States. They are elitist. It shouldn't be an insult in politics.

[mfwahl]

I recommend the episode of PBS's Frontline entitled "Bush's War." It came out this past March. It is the most in-depth coverage of the Iraq War I've seen. It's 2 parts, 4-5 hrs total. The interviews are amazing.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I recommend the episode of PBS's Frontline entitled "Bush's War." It came out this past March. It is the most in-depth coverage of the Iraq War I've seen. It's 2 parts, 4-5 hrs total. The interviews are amazing.

Frontline has actually updated this two or three times -- it was an hour in 2002. Yes they pull it all together, and it's not fuzzy logic but facts and concrete reporting. It may be part of the most recent one, or a separate Frontline, but it also beat up the media for how badly they handled the run-up -- other than Knight Ridder, whose staff on the borders of Washington was left to wonder if they weren't completely on an island because the mainstream media refused to report anything that was under their nose.

[Tweedling]

Did anyone feel HC included herself or her husband when giving any type of endorsement or compliment of Barack? I just got this feeling she could have done a little more to encourage her supporters that Barack is "the man". Again, it could just be me.

I felt like she was slightly setting her next presidential move.......

[Party @ the Moontower]

Did anyone feel HC included herself or her husband when giving any type of endorsement or compliment of Barack? I just got this feeling she could have done a little more to encourage her supporters that Barack is "the man". Again, it could just be me.

I felt like she was slightly setting her next presidential move.......

 

I'm sure the republicans will run with this one..or already have and I'm just late.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Any more news on the would be Obama killers?

 

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/police-investi...

 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/plot-to-kill-o...

[fatheadfred]

I recommend the episode of PBS's Frontline entitled "Bush's War." It came out this past March. It is the most in-depth coverage of the Iraq War I've seen. It's 2 parts, 4-5 hrs total. The interviews are amazing.

 

Second that. That was great. I remember watching that saying to myself, "should I be watching this? does the gubment know this is being aired?" At that time the pressure to support the war was still heavy and to oppose it made you one of the evildoers. Ballsy.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Did anyone feel HC included herself or her husband when giving any type of endorsement or compliment of Barack? I just got this feeling she could have done a little more to encourage her supporters that Barack is "the man". Again, it could just be me.

I felt like she was slightly setting her next presidential move.......

Agree 100%. I thought that, while her speech was great, it was very calculating in that it set her up as looking like she is doing all she can for party unity, but I felt she was also very purposefully choosing her words for a possible 2012 run. She talked about either Obama or McCain and on the issues, Obama is better than McCain. But she seemed to take credit for Obama's platform. Also, I never heard her emphatically endorsing Obama as a leader. She more said that his platform was more like hers than McCain's. I dunno, I thought it was a good speech, but she could have done more. I don't think it was the "high road" as much as some are making it out to be.

 

Oh and "Bush's War" on Frontline is must see TV.

[Tweedling]

I agree, it was a good speech.

 

 

 

 

And as for the Bush and war and........like nevermind.