Wilco. Had Jay Bennett not left the band

[LouieB]

interestingly... a search of youtube reveals zero jay bennett recordings... weird

Jay rarely performs in public so this actually not surprising...

 

LouieB

[pmancini100]

i like his solo stuff. so his voice sounds a little tom waits/sad bruce springsteen-ish. who cares, the guys a genius.

 

people seem to focus on someones voice a lot, i think its not that important.

[mpolak21]

i like his solo stuff. so his voice sounds a little tom waits/sad bruce springsteen-ish. who cares, the guys a genius.

 

people seem to focus on someones voice a lot, i think its not that important.

 

The voice comments are slightly more relevant than the fat jokes though. That said I did laugh at Jules' original post, and for the most part this thread has been one of the more productive conversations I've seen about Bennett on VC in my time here. People tend to be very passionate one way or the other on Bennett and usually these devolve into pissing contests quite quickly. Thankfully the worst offenders have stayed away thus far.

 

I hadn't considered the possibility that Bennett would have caused the band to split, I'm pretty sure if he'd had continued to be a problem (in this hypothetical scenario) he would have just got canned. Though I am not sure how much longer Tweedy and Bennett could have taken the psychological toll their working relationship seemed to be taking on both of them. And YHF really seemed to be a perfect storm, would Jay really want to do all that work producing those tracks and then decide to turn over the mixing to Jim O'Rourke each time out (though it worked better than anything they'd done before or since). And if Bennett got healthy as well would that affect the way they wrote music? Was the secret behind their success the tension? Who knows?

 

--Mike

[cryptique]

people seem to focus on someones voice a lot, i think its not that important.

It might not be important to you...

[LouieB]

If someone sings their voice is important...

 

Louieb

[mastershake]

i think wilco would be much different if jay had remained in the band and nels never joined. for one, every song wouldn't end in a guitar solo like the songs tend to do now. i think they would have been more experimental like with the summerteeth and yankee hotel foxtrot albums and sky blue sky would have ended up sounding totally different. i still think jeff would have wanted to write the sky blue sky songs whether jay was there or not, but the final sound of the album would have been different because jay seemed like someone who liked to stand up to jeff and give his honest opinion and would try to influence him to do things he otherwise wasn't considering. nels doesn't seem like that kind of guy, he basically does anything jeff tells him to and doesn't question.

 

it's kind of like when you are watching episode I, II, and III of star wars and you are wondering "did anyone ever tell george lucas no? did anyone have the balls to give him creative input and tell him when something he is doing sucks or isn't quite right?" i mean how did that dialogue in I and especially II ever get past the first read through? george lucas, with the success of the first movies, basically became this powerful guy who did anything he wanted and no one challenged him. thus he put out 2 piece of shit movies (I and II) and 1 mediocre film (III) because no one in the process of making the film convinced him that was he was making was shit and something needed to change before he finalized the product.

 

i think jeff is kind of like george lucas. he had jay there to spur him creatively (whether he liked it or not) and he made some strokes of genius with being there, summerteeth, yankee hotel foxtrot, and even a ghost is born which contained songs written when jay was still in the band. now the band is officially "jeff's band" and i don't think the members are questioning his decisions enough. they are just doing whatever he wants to do and following his lead assuming he knows best. i think it's better when you have everyone giving aggressive input. look at the beatles... they were so great because of the competition between lennon mccartney and eventually harrison to write the best songs. they helped each other out and were constantly in a state of argument/conflict etc. near the end of the bands life. but they produced some of the greatest music ever.

 

and for the record i don't think sky blue sky is a bad album, it's just so much different from what wilco was doing and it doesn't seem to stand the test of time... i listen to it less the older it gets yet i still go back to all the other albums frequently.

[pmancini100]

i like the star wars analogy.

 

i like AGIB and sky blue sky, and i like episodes 1 and 2.

 

and jay bennetts solo career.

 

and im proud of it.

[dondoboy]

The voice comments are slightly more relevant than the fat jokes though. That said I did laugh at Jules' original post, and for the most part this thread has been one of the more productive conversations I've seen about Bennett on VC in my time here. People tend to be very passionate one way or the other on Bennett and usually these devolve into pissing contests quite quickly. Thankfully the worst offenders have stayed away thus far.

 

I hadn't considered the possibility that Bennett would have caused the band to split, I'm pretty sure if he'd had continued to be a problem (in this hypothetical scenario) he would have just got canned. Though I am not sure how much longer Tweedy and Bennett could have taken the psychological toll their working relationship seemed to be taking on both of them. And YHF really seemed to be a perfect storm, would Jay really want to do all that work producing those tracks and then decide to turn over the mixing to Jim O'Rourke each time out (though it worked better than anything they'd done before or since). And if Bennett got healthy as well would that affect the way they wrote music? Was the secret behind their success the tension? Who knows?

 

--Mike

OK, now I feel bad about the fat jokes.

 

So for redemption sake, I think if Jay had stayed in the band it would have imploded. Some creative tension is healthy and promotes the right amount of competition. That kind of playful banter may have made the making of Summerteeth a pretty good movie. And if we only use the movie as a guide to the problems the band was having we'd be leaving out Coomer's departure and a new drummer coming in. The scenes in the movie that have Jay alone, before the split say tons about what kind of guy he is every day. Not the kind of guy I'd like to spend any time with.

 

And if the point of this thread is to say that the songs are less impressive or the band is less experimental and Sky Blue Sky is the proof then I say listen to it again. It took me a while to half understand the complexity that lays inside those deceptively simple songs. I don't believe that Jay could have added anything to those songs. I think that had Jeff and John known Pat or Nels or had the opportunity to ask them to join the band in 1997 I think they would have.

 

And a singer's voice matters. That's why Jay wasn't the singer.

[mfwahl]

Pat is turning into Chewbacca.

[nodep5]

I've been there since the beginning and have seen Wilco on every tour except for the first Mermaid Ave. (i already sound like an ass) To me, I enjoy all of incarnations musically in terms of what was recorded, but back in the day, specifically Being There Tour, Wilco was a rock and roll band who put on an amazingly intense/stupid live show. Now Wilco is a technical live show where artistry appears more important than having fun. This is a general statement and I'm not saying one is better than the other. The worst of this was the YHF tour right after sept 11 (mayber appropriate for the time) but an awful live show in my opinion. Now I have seen this latest lineup have fun and be intense in a fun/crazy way a few times, but back in the Jay days it was every time. But to ramble on, that got old too and it became insincere at times. You can only see Jay soloing with his moppy hair flying around so many times before it becomes tired. Or maybe I was just young and inspired back then. Maybe it is all perception.

[froggie]

> What was thrown?

 

food from the deli tray

 

 

> Max Johnston anyone?

 

bob egan?

[pmancini100]

a singers voice matters, but not that much. if people didnt worry about it so often, the world would have more singers. amateurism is being lost in our society. if you sing, its just as legit as any "american idol," you know? theres too many "experts" and people have the mentality that theyll never be as good, so why bother. i dunno, just a pet peeve that always bothered me.

 

i watched i am trying to break your heart the other day (cause of this thread.) i love jays sg, that thing is so badass.

[morroben]

Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum and this is my first post but I'm just going to dive right in.

I've been a Wilco fan since the beginning (and an Uncle Tupelo fan before that) and some of my favorite songs are from the Jay era. Still I feel like the band needed to move on in order to stay together.

When I heard that Nels Cline was joining the band, I was skeptical. I was a Nels fan from his solo work and Geraldine Fibbers but I had a hard time seeing how he would fit in. I couldn't have been more wrong. He's one of the best things that's happened to the band and I think I like the new lineup more than the Jay era lineup. I've turned into a really big Nels fan.

They're a very different band now than they were then. I guess you could say that my two favorite bands are Wilco...the old and the new.

As a side note, I wish Nels had been in the band for YHF. I don't mean that as a knock at Jay, but I think the deconstruction type ideas on that album would have really worked well with Nels' style.

[mountain bed]

This is a quality 1st post. Welcome to the board morroben!

[nodep5]

a singers voice matters, but not that much. if people didnt worry about it so often, the world would have more singers. amateurism is being lost in our society. if you sing, its just as legit as any "american idol," you know? theres too many "experts" and people have the mentality that theyll never be as good, so why bother. i dunno, just a pet peeve that always bothered me.

 

i watched i am trying to break your heart the other day (cause of this thread.) i love jays sg, that thing is so badass.

 

 

I think I agree with where you are coming from. I tend to prefer individuals with mediocre musical ability but lots of originality and creativity (neil young/jeff tweedy) I also have always preferred people with less that great voices but voices that grab me or are unique (j mascis/jeff tweedy) But a voice has to pull me in and some voices (like when I hear myself) don't pull me in. some people grab your attention and others don't. And for me the better the voice in musical terms the less it tends to grab me. This made no sense at all.

[Basil II]

I think I agree with where you are coming from. I tend to prefer individuals with mediocre musical ability but lots of originality and creativity (neil young/jeff tweedy) I also have always preferred people with less that great voices but voices that grab me or are unique (j mascis/jeff tweedy) But a voice has to pull me in and some voices (like when I hear myself) don't pull me in. some people grab your attention and others don't. And for me the better the voice in musical terms the less it tends to grab me. This made no sense at all.

 

 

Yes, it DOES make sense.....

 

eg.....Conor Oberst's voice makes me wince,but I recognise his talents and music makes people happy.....so I leave it at that. It's just that simple.

 

-Robert

[thejokeexplained]

A pretty voice is a dime a dozen no matter gained either by natural ability or professional training. Someone that can write a song that touches me and sing it in a way were i believe it is unique. And that is what i look for in a musical artist's vocal ability.

 

For some reason with me, the better the voice the less i believe the words. Figure that one out.

[i'm only sleeping]

For those still interested, Jay Bennett is offering for free a legal download (320kbps) of his album

[dondoboy]

I never thought about the title. At least he apologized.

[dtram]

I always feel that the people who don't like Jay Bennett in one form or another never saw him play live with Wilco. I did see Jay play with Wilco before and those shows were my favorite ones. Is there anyone who saw Wilco with Jay who were glad he left?

 

No. As a matter of fact I was so bummed that he was kicked out that i lost interest in the band for the few years after (I've been fortunate to have seen them tour every record but Mermaid ave 1 and was lucky enough to have had dinner with the band, minus Jeff, on the '99 tour.) To follow up on what others have said, Wilco shows 1995-2000 were fun, the first tour after he left was very boring to me, too serious and having loved the band with Jay, those shows were very lacking to me.

 

Now with the new lineup with Nels and Pat, I would say that this incarnation live is better and tighter. Really reminds me of The Band. I think the residency shows have in a way allowed this incarnation to make the catalog stuff their own and has really opened up what they play live and that makes it really interesting, at least to me.

 

However, record wise, BT, ST, YHF plus the Mermaid Ave's are a lot better records than the last 2. That's not to say I don't like the last 2, i do, a lot. But they are not in the same league, not exciting in the same way that the others were. What was the primary change? No Jay.

 

I am really looking forward to this new record though, I think this lineup has a "classic" Wilco record in them.

 

As a postscript, I'm not one of those, Jay is God types. I have 2 of his solo records and his voice just can't carry a record, to me. I think his best use is as a collaborator, to help color other peoples ideas.

 

Dave

[remphish1]

No. As a matter of fact I was so bummed that he was kicked out that i lost interest in the band for the few years after (I've been fortunate to have seen them tour every record but Mermaid ave 1 and was lucky enough to have had dinner with the band, minus Jeff, on the '99 tour.) To follow up on what others have said, Wilco shows 1995-2000 were fun, the first tour after he left was very boring to me, too serious and having loved the band with Jay, those shows were very lacking to me.

 

Now with the new lineup with Nels and Pat, I would say that this incarnation live is better and tighter. Really reminds me of The Band. I think the residency shows have in a way allowed this incarnation to make the catalog stuff their own and has really opened up what they play live and that makes it really interesting, at least to me.

 

However, record wise, BT, ST, YHF plus the Mermaid Ave's are a lot better records than the last 2. That's not to say I don't like the last 2, i do, a lot. But they are not in the same league, not exciting in the same way that the others were. What was the primary change? No Jay.

 

I am really looking forward to this new record though, I think this lineup has a "classic" Wilco record in them.

 

As a postscript, I'm not one of those, Jay is God types. I have 2 of his solo records and his voice just can't carry a record, to me. I think his best use is as a collaborator, to help color other peoples ideas.

 

Dave

 

I agree with almost all of this post!

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

After watching I am trying to break your heart with the very apparent tension between Jay and Jeff, I think it is fairly obvious that there would be no Wilco today without Jay's dismissal.

 

Admittedly, the movie is somewhat slanted in its depiction of Jay's issues. However, apparently the film only maginfied these issues in depiction. Living (on the road) and working with Jay must have been more stress than Jeff was willing to tolerate. I don't think it's insignificant that Jay was dismissed after two shows at the beginning of the YHF.

 

Jeff and his unwillingness (or inability) to deal with conflict is a situation that I can identify with. Before his clumsy dismissal of Jay (a circle can only have one center), Jeff had never really dealt with the personal conflict inherent in firing somebody (Max Johnson, Bob Egan, Ken Coomer...). Jeff felt strongly enough about dissolving his ties with Jay that he did it face to face. I can only imagine the anxiety and turmoil this caused.

 

Jeff is healthier. Wilco is healthier.

[myboyblue]

Admittedly, the movie is somewhat slanted in its depiction of Jay's issues. However, apparently the film only maginfied these issues in depiction. Living (on the road) and working with Jay must have been more stress than Jeff was willing to tolerate.

 

I see this comment on this board relatively frequently. Not sure how people gather this almost as if it is a fact. How do you know that the movie wasn't slanted away from this? I would think that there is quite a bit of footage pointing towards Jay's dismissal that was not included in the actual film.

 

I like Jay and hope he does well but it was clear that Wilco was going in a different direction.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I see this comment on this board relatively frequently. Not sure how people gather this almost as if it is a fact. How do you know that the movie wasn't slanted away from this? I would think that there is quite a bit of footage pointing towards Jay's dismissal that was not included in the actual film.

 

I like Jay and hope he does well but it was clear that Wilco was going in a different direction.

 

 

Point taken...I was trying to give him (Jay) the benefit of the doubt here.

 

But if what you are saying (movie under playing Jay's assholery) is true, then he must have been a raging dick. Leroy probably indicated as much in his movie scene on the subject.

[remphish1]

I don't see it posted anywhere else so here is a recent interview with Jay...

http://myoldkyhome.blogspot.com/2008/12/my...holiday_24.html