2012 President?

[KevinG]

The ID debate seems to have run its course, maybe not I don't know. I need to take a break, apparently I need to go back to high school. I think others would welcome a break from my arrogance (not the irony in saying that).

[bleedorange]

Of course, bleedorange, that would lead to more government spending. Imagine how much in Texas. Big state, lots of DMV stations needed. A more efficient means might be mobile stations open once a month or so. Is it worth it to raise taxes to pay for this? Something for fiscal conservatives to think about. In Iowa, we have 99 counties, in pretty small land area. I'm pretty sure each has a DMV office, though I'm not sure. I would not oppose a photo ID law under those circumstances.

 

True. The cost-effectiveness of it would have to be determined. I also wonder about other IDs that might not be state-issued. What is the verification process for some of those?

 

And I ask this question out of general curiosity, although I'm sure I'll be verbally reprimanded for not being sensitive enough:

 

Who are these people with no forms of identification? Are they all unemployed, never been employed, or self-employed and work from home? I only ask because every job I've ever had has required filling out an I-9. And every employee I've ever hired has required the same.

[Tweedling]

I've only seen a couple campaign ads but the media keeps stating how vicious they are. Have any of you seen one that seems crazy or better yet effective?

 

[IRememberDBoon]

True. The cost-effectiveness of it would have to be determined. I also wonder about other IDs that might not be state-issued. What is the verification process for some of those?

 

And I ask this question out of general curiosity, although I'm sure I'll be verbally reprimanded for not being sensitive enough:

 

Who are these people with no forms of identification? Are they all unemployed, never been employed, or self-employed and work from home? I only ask because every job I've ever had has required filling out an I-9. And every employee I've ever hired has required the same.

 

young folks that have ridden the subway their whole lives. old folks whos licenses have long since expired. folks with suspended licenses that dont have the $$$ to get a new one yet.

[lost highway]

I left the country for a couple weeks and now I'm trying to sort out where the political discussion is at right now.

 

First thing I see is Jon Stewart tearing Romney a new asshole (comically) for "retroactively retiring" from his mega corp that laid of Americans and sent jobs overseas. Romney also ducked behind a blind trust for his finances which he claims is responsible for his offshore tax havens.

[Tweedling]

This makes me sick. It is revealing.

 

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back.  They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own.  You didn’t get there on your own.  I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart.  There are a lot of smart people out there.  It must be because I worked harder than everybody else.  Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there." -Barack Obama

[lost highway]

You don't think that's true?

[KevinG]

This makes me sick. It is revealing.

 

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there." -Barack Obama

 

Please provide one example of a successful American, who became successful on their own.

[Winston Legthigh]

This makes me sick. It is revealing.

 

Please expound.

[ih8music]

This makes me sick. It is revealing.

 

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there." -Barack Obama

I agree -- it is indeed revealing that a quote like that would make you sick.

 

But seriously, what disturbs you so much about what he said?

[Tweedling]

We all have received help from family, friends and other various ways. I'm not disagreeing with that but the president of the United States to deliver a speech that sounds like a Rev Wright message and say that you didn't become successful because you worked harder than other people is bullshit! I know a lot of successful people who did it on their own. You don't have to be famous to be successful. This is still the argument from Barack that you should do your share.... Well Mr President I DO my share and thats why we pay our taxes and we give to the police and fire deprtments when they have fund raising and we jpin PTA tohelp raise funds for our schools. I have been successful with the help of friends, family and the grace of God. I do not need you to tell me how the government has helped me. I know!

[calvino]

I thought you were going to say the below line made you sick, Tweedling.

 

"There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back.

[gogo]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I don't understand why the president saying something that you admit you know to be true, would make you sick. I don't think he's talking to/about any of us in that statement (unless there are some hidden billionaires on VC that I'm not aware of). He's talking about the richest of the rich, who don't want to pay more, even though the hit to them would be slight in comparison to the benefits to society overall. If that makes me sound like Reverend Wright, so be it.

[ih8music]

sounds like a Rev Wright message?

[Winston Legthigh]

My take away from his statement is that there is no such thing as becoming successful on your own. Unless you were born in a vacuum, and never had any interaction with society, your success was dependent on your upbringing, your education you received, the loans you took, the scholarships you were awarded, the tax breaks you were given, the infrastructure you used, etc.

 

Some people are deluded into thinking they did it all themselves. It's just not possible.

[Tweedling]

I'm sorry I get a little heated on this whole subject but my take away was people do not become successful by working harder than other people. That statement really bothers me.

[Beltmann]

We all have received help from family, friends and other various ways. I'm not disagreeing with that but the president of the United States to deliver a speech that sounds like a Rev Wright message and say that you didn't become successful because you worked harder than other people is bullshit!

I don't think that's what he was saying at all, and I think it requires a willful desire to distort the speech to arrive at that conclusion. If anything has been "revealed," it's the extent to which the right-wing smear machine is willing to stoop to such distortions, and the extent to which many voters are willing to buy such distortions simply because it confirms their cartoonish notions about what this "anti-American" president must really believe deep down about attacking success.

 

This is Obama's conclusion to that passage in his speech: "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

 

In other words, Obama said something that is both true and obvious. Personal hard work matters and deserves reward, but the social contract matters, too. To which I think the only proper response is, well duh. It's an uncontroversial statement, unless you are actively looking for ways to manipulate the statement into something it isn't. I expect that from Limbaugh and Hannity, but not from you, Tweedling.

[ih8music]

I'm sorry I get a little heated on this whole subject but my take away was people do not become successful by working harder than other people. That statement really bothers me.

 

But it's true. It takes a lot more than just hard work to become successful. Ask any teacher, janitor, housekeeper, etc. if they work hard or not.

 

Yes, you need to work hard (in most cases) to become successful in life... but where you started and what opportunities you received throughout your life has a huge influence on that, too.

[KevinG]

I do not need you to tell me how the government has helped me. I know!

 

I don't think in the quote you provided he mentioned the government. But I understand that it was inferred.

 

Maybe you do not need to know how the government has helped you or other successful people out there, but the current GOP rhetoric and actions make me question if others might need a bit of reminding.

 

The GOP has proclaimed that they are sooo concerned about the deficit, that they need to cut the lazy public sector, and slash benefits and programs, or voting down job bills, but yet when it comes to a marginal tax increase on the wealthiest (actually allowing tax cuts to expire that were suppose to expire) they scream and yell like it is the end of the world.

 

Like it or not our government provides people things, that cost money, the government collects taxes for those things. Those that are most successful have forgotten that they got to their position with help.

[JUDE]

I understand where Tweedling is coming from. The thing is both sides of the aisle cloud the taxes build infrastructure issue. Everyone goes back to the income tax rate when in fact that is a small part of it. I have yet to find a way to reduce tax liability for ownership of property, i.e. commercial or residential property taxes, used by local municipalities to provide infrastructure. I can’t figure out a way to eliminate or reduce paying taxes to the state and federal government on every gallon of diesel fuel we purchase to haul our goods. Every July I prepare the 2290, Heavy Vehicle Use Tax for the trucks we use haul our goods. We pay an extra tax on tires to help defray the maintenance costs of the Federal Highway system. Every thing we purchase for use in the course of business (unless for resale) is charged both a state and local sales tax. I could go on and on.

Yes, the government provides infrastructure and support systems necessary for the success of businesses and individuals but don’t be so naive as to think they aren’t getting reimbursed for their services.

[lost highway]

Jude you're laying out a good first-hand experience of the complexity and difficulty of the system of taxation, public infrastructure and bureaucracy.

 

What has been on hand here however, is really a discussion about socioeconomic class, entitlement and responsibility. I find that when people of wealth shudder at a fairly rational acknowledgement of privilege and it's power by our president, they are revealing their ignorance on the dynamics of poverty.

 

The bristling offense taken reeks of aristocracy and old-money cloaked behind the "American dream". If you can't imagine how some numbskull is born into wealth and how a genius can stay poor you haven't read your Dickens. I think most of the heroes of our real rags to riches stories acknowledge that most people chances of making it out of a ghetto are unlikely enough. The problem is their progeny sometimes lose sight of this fact. "I'm rich, but dammit my dad had naught but his bootstraps" kind of thing.

[Beltmann]

I'm willing to concede that Obama hates success if Republicans are willing to concede that Bush hates black people! Point is, both statements are on-their-face so absurd that only the most partisan individuals could believe that kind of rhetoric--you can only believe it if you are primed to think the worst about Obama or Bush, and are willing to view everything they do through that distorted prism. Too often people treat politics like sports, with all of the homerism and irrational jeering that goes along with it.

[bleedorange]

I'm willing to concede that Obama hates success if Republicans are willing to concede that Bush hates black people! Point is, both statements are so on-their-face so absurd that only the most partisan individuals could believe that kind of rhetoric--you can only believe it if you are primed to think the worst about Obama or Bush, and are willing to view everything they do through that distorted prism. Too often people treat politics like sports, with all of the homerism and irrational jeering that goes along with it.

 

That's all politics is these days.

[Tweedling]

C'mon man. There are smears and stretches on both sides and we all know it. To act like the right are the only ones doing it is inaccurate. I do not subscribe to the notion that Obama is anti-American. However, he and I probably disagree on what it means to be American. And I'm not being a smart ass.

I listen and read from both political spectrums of punditry. I like to see both points of view and follow what I feel. I took an exact quote that happens to rub me the wrong way and go against everything I was raised to believe. I did not stretch it or manipulate it.

 

EDIT BY BELTMANN: Sorry, I'm not sure how but I accidentally moderated the last part of this... that was unintentional. (I think I pressed "edit" instead of "quote" and didn't notice until it was too late.)

[JUDE]

My question is “where do we draw the socioeconomic line?”

I have a real problem with the $250,000 income level figure that gets tossed about. If you are a business owner who shows $250K in taxable income on your 1040 you most likely had to have revenues of $1.5 to $2 million at a 15% margin. Is this any different than some mutual fund manager who makes a salary and bonuses of a few million dollars a year? One could argue that the business owner had all of his investment and assets at risk to make his $250K whereas the fund manager made a salary for his job. Where do we draw this line?