Presidential Race (Respector Edition)

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

 

 

I confess I have apologized for Obama on these issues as a "lesser of evils" (excuse the cliche) argument. Bush marches the troops in by the thousand, and while Obama seems to do a decent job of marching them back home, he also sends drones to kill more specific targets. I think Obama sincerely looks to capture, detain, kill etc dangerous men who would hope to do harm to our nation. The problem is he continues (and in some ways extends) the Bush administration's habit of overstepping legal and ethical boundaries to do so.

 

**Edit/ PS** I just stumbled across more of the bizarre footage of Eastwood at the RNC. At one point he digs into Obama for having the horrible idea to try convicted terrorists in NYC. Apparently Obama's brief flirtation with due process is worthy of derision.

 

He might have 'marched them back home' from Iraq, but the body bags are still being filled in Afghanistan.

And as for overstepping legal and ethical boundaries...if I remember correctly, Sadam Hussein stood trial in Iraq, was convicted and duly executed.

While I shed no tears for bin Laden, Obama has not moral high ground to assert here. It was a revenge killing. That and the indiscriminate use of drones to attack targets in Countries we have not declared war against and the excessive civilians killed would earn Obama a place on the docket with Bush and Blair in the Hague.

It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[KevinG]

He might have 'marched them back home' from Iraq, but the body bags are still being filled in Afghanistan.

And as for overstepping legal and ethical boundaries...if I remember correctly, Sadam Hussein stood trial in Iraq, was convicted and duly executed.

While I shed no tears for bin Laden, Obama has not moral high ground to assert here. It was a revenge killing. That and the indiscriminate use of drones to attack targets in Countries we have not declared war against and the excessive civilians killed would earn Obama a place on the docket with Bush and Blair in the Hague.

It's rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

After the foreign policy disasters of 2000 - 2008 and the Bush Doctrine, I don't think any conservative has the right to complain about what Obama has done foreign policy wise. Of course I say this with tongue firmly in cheek.

 

1) Afghanistan - you can't just pull out an occupying force with a snap of the fingers. As much as I would like all troops to come home now, I tend to trust those advisors who see a 2014 timeline as the right course. Bodies bag are coming home which sucks, and sucks big time but that is what war gets ya. Maybe it would have been better if we didn't go in the first place, but rather than continue to have an open ended war PBO has put timeline out there. And I really believe with Romney is elected we will have troops on the ground in Iran and or Syria by the end of 2013. Talk about body bags.

 

2) Totally agree with you on Sadam. He was tried and convicted by his people, but he was hanged in 2006 so I am not sure what that has to do with PBO. Maybe the only success GWB had foreign policy but it was something he had a very little to do with.

 

3) Has PBO ever claimed the high ground on the OBL killings? Hell yes it was a revenge killing, it was a revenge killing for every US citizen. There was no way OBL was going to be taken alive. I have no problem with that.

 

4) If you look at it every head of state could be convicted of a War Crime. Does that mean he will? No. I never agreed with people clamoring for GWB, Cheney, and Blair to be tried as war criminals.

 

As much as I hate PBO on his slowness to remove troop from Afghanistan, and closing of Gitmo, and other foreign policy missteps, at least I see a plan and some smarts with the people he has in place. Hillary is a great Sec of State. And foreign policy is in a much better place now then in 2008.

 

The RR ticket has me worried, especially with a gaping lack in foreign policy experience. Coming into 2008 Obama was on Foreign relations, and Homeland Security committees. Also as a Senator and Biden has extensive time on the Foreign relations as well. Whereas Paul Ryan has no foreign experience as a congressman and we all saw Romney's first "foreign relations trip" this summer. Really it seems that Romney's foreign policy achievements are limited to be opening Swiss Bank Accounts

 

Also think about Romney's speech last week, did he mention foreign policy? Did he mention our troops? Yes I know this election is about the economy, but when you are elected president you are the commander and chief of the most power army in the world. I would like to have some foreign policy experience there to know how and when to use it. Or how to deal with other countries. The RR ticket is severely lacking in that aspect.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

I just figured out that PBO meant President Barak Obama.

 

I think I'll go eat a sandwich.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

And let's see if his emminence Archbishop Tutu will calll for PBO to face war crimes charges.

 

I don't expect people to be logical in their arguments, I just expect them to be honest and consistent on important points.

[LouieB]

Good one...

 

I have no idea what this means. If a graphic and its words are supposed to convey a simple message, this one is confounding. Is it saying that labor isn't doing anything, either working or advocating for workers, that the administration (although Nancy Pelosi is not speaker of the House) is backstabing workers, that all these guys are smug and taking away workers rights? I just don't get it and I am not going to whatever Looking Spoon is to find out what their ideological bent is.

 

This graphic is a failure, sorry.

 

LouieB

[Doug C]

I agree, Lou. I assume that it is supposed to convey something about high unemployment but, to a thinking person, it is pointless. The irony of the graphic is that it was likely created by an anti-unionist. I doubt that the The Looking Spoon truly supports Labor Day as it was intended nor do the they support the unions that were the aegis behind Labor Day's creation. A failure, indeed.

[KevinG]

So the current meme of the GOP going into the DNC is, "Are you better off than 4 years ago?" And so truthfully ask yourself that question.

 

And then ask yourself this question, are you better off than you where 12 years ago? Because here is the rub, the economic plans of RR are nothing more than a rehash of the disastrous policies of GWB. It is a policy of tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, cutting programs and services for the poor and middle class, and deregulation. It is an anti-worker, pro-corporation, pro-wealthy strategy that really screwed us and is continuing to screw us.

 

So yeah we might not be where we want to, (though me personally I am better off then I was in 2008). To repeat the same policies that got us into this mess to begin with is not a smart move.

[KevinG]

And let's see if his emminence Archbishop Tutu will calll for PBO to face war crimes charges.

 

I don't expect people to be logical in their arguments, I just expect them to be honest and consistent on important points.

 

I would also expect people to be honest and consistent on important points. But I wonder if you missed the point here. I don't mean to sound snotty, but did you read Tutu's op-ed? Or did you read the headline and say, well PBO is a sitting president that oversaw a war that killed civilians, so Tutu must declare him a war criminal too.

 

Here is the op-ed:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/02/desmond-tutu-tony-blair-iraq

 

It was not necessarily what happened in Iraq or Afghanistan that Tutu is making his claim, it is the reasoning for going to Iraq in the first place. The loss of life is a result of the lie and that is what Tutu is trying to get at.

 

Instead of recognising that the world we lived in, with increasingly sophisticated communications, transportations and weapons systems necessitated sophisticated leadership that would bring the global family together, the then-leaders of the US and UK fabricated the grounds to behave like playground bullies and drive us further apart. They have driven us to the edge of a precipice where we now stand – with the spectre of Syria and Iran before us.

 

In short it was the lie the predicated the war, not the war itself. So if PBO goes into Iran or Syria on a lie, yes I would expect Tutu would call for him to be tried as a war criminal.

 

But you calling Tutu intellectually dishonest or inconsistent for not calling PBO a war criminal is disingenuous and misrepresentation of what Tutu said.

[brownie]

So the current meme of the GOP going into the DNC is, "Are you better off than 4 years ago?" And so truthfully ask yourself that question.

I am better off than I was 4 years ago.

 

And then ask yourself this question, are you better off than you where 12 years ago?

I am definitely worse off than I was 12 years ago.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I enthusiastically voted for Obama in 2008. I am thinking I will vote for him again in 2012, but only because he "isn't Romney."

 

I even went so far as to google "alternative party candidates 2012", and don't find anyone better than Obama. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[LouieB]

 

I even went so far as to google "alternative party candidates 2012", and don't find anyone better than Obama. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

There is no better candidate who can beat Romney......do you want Romney?

 

LouieB

[brownie]

There is no better candidate who can beat Romney......do you want Romney?

No! Like I said, I am planning to vote for Obama, but at this point, it's not because I truly believe in him (as I did 4 years ago), now he's simply the lesser of two evils.

[The High Heat]

Obama helped me buy my first home with the housing tax credit (the second one), but my corporate employer only offers yearly 1% raises, which they usually drag their feet in rewarding it. My benefits are diminishing, evaporating or getting expensive. Two years ago my annual bonus got cut in half, then eliminated last year. All the while, my employer is creating middle management travelling jobs in a difficult economic era. Somebody, somewhere is making money off this mess, and I would guess they're supporting the candidate who will keep the cash cow alive and fat. Last time I voted I did it for eight years, not four, because I knew nobody was going to fix the mess that was laid on our laps in one term. Obama gave me the one small leg-up I'll probably ever get from the government. It was more than I asked for or expected, but I support him because he supported me.

[Tweedling]

 

I am better off than I was 4 years ago.

 

 

I am definitely worse off than I was 12 years ago.

 

I don't know what the answer is. I enthusiastically voted for Obama in 2008. I am thinking I will vote for him again in 2012, but only because he "isn't Romney."

 

I even went so far as to google "alternative party candidates 2012", and don't find anyone better than Obama. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

You can always write one in

[IRememberDBoon]

i still dont get how they keep talking about unemployment when we were bleeding 600K jobs a month in late 08 and 09 and now were adding jobs.

[ih8music]

Honestly, my life and economic situation is much better now than it was 4 yrs ago. Aside from the fact that I'm making a decent amount more money now than I was in 2008 (as a self employed geek these past 4+ years), I have the safety net from the ACA which ensures that I can't be denied from health insurance due to pre-existing conditions if I ever have to get a "real" job. I know not everyone is better off now than they were in 2008, but I'm curious to hear.

 

Also, for the old farts here - are you better off now vs. 2000? I'm not, but then again I was riding the tech bubble at the time and thinking I was a genius.

[LouieB]

No! Like I said, I am planning to vote for Obama, but at this point, it's not because I truly believe in him (as I did 4 years ago), now he's simply the lesser of two evils.

Is Obama really that evil?

 

LouieB

[KevinG]

Found this in the NY Times and thought it was pretty interesting. It is a word cloud of common phrases from the two conventions

 

GOP convention word cloud

 

Democratic convention word cloud (obviously this will be updated as the convention goes on).

[Tweedling]

Found this in the NY Times and thought it was pretty interesting. It is a word cloud of common phrases from the two conventions

 

GOP convention word cloud

 

Democratic convention word cloud (obviously this will be updated as the convention goes on).

Pretty cool. Thanks

[Mr. Heartbreak]

What did people think of Michelle's speech last night? I have honestly never been as huge a fan of her as most of the country seems to be, but I thought she knocked it out of the park. It seemed truly heartfelt.

The line that impressed me the most, personally, was this:

We learned about gratitude and humility—that so many people had a hand in our success, from the teachers who inspired us to the janitors who kept our school clean.

A great rebuttal to the "We did build it" crap...and also a reminder, for me at least, that I did not recall hearing the words gratitude or humility once during the time I tuned in to the RNC. Just sayin' ....

[Radiant Witch Face]

I actually enjoyed watching the convention last night. the people there actually looked like a true picture of America. I watched some of the RNC last week and it looked like white, disgruntled America.

[KevinG]

I actually enjoyed watching the convention last night. the people there actually looked like a true picture of America. I watched some of the RNC last week and it looked like white, disgruntled America.

 

But I think they paraded every non white, non male they have to speak at the RNC.

[Tweedling]

 

 

But I think they paraded every non white, non male they have to speak at the RNC.

We'll get to see all the women the dems can parade as well.

[LouieB]

We'll get to see all the women the dems can parade as well.

Actually they had all the femaile members of the House on stage yesterday.

 

LouieB

[Tweedling]

Actually they had all the femaile members of the House on stage yesterday.

 

LouieB

Ummmm yes?

[LouieB]

Ummmm yes?

Just saying. There will be more women tonight too I suppose. There are lots of them around ya know.

 

LouieB