Politics 2017

[Winston Legthigh]

I'm not sure how I feel about having Franken fall on his sword at this point. He openly asked for an ethics committee to look into the matter. If he's got other skeletons in his closet, it might be the best move to resign now, but I do have to say, knowing that blaming the victim is not something to go into, but in this case, she's a birther who makes appearances on the Hannity show. 

 

I feel like we're in the era now where every sin from the past will now be picked over with a fine toothed comb, and enemies will support victims to come forward, as if they're weapons and not human beings. 

 

Having said that, I don't want to excuse Franken's behavior. I know that I have pictures out there that I'm acting like I'm grabbing a friend's ass, or other inappropriate photo bombs. It's sophomoric behavior, and it's dumb, and if someone wanted to weaponize one of those photos against me, I'd be in a pickle. 

[KevinG]

I'm not sure how I feel about having Franken fall on his sword at this point. He openly asked for an ethics committee to look into the matter. If he's got other skeletons in his closet, it might be the best move to resign now

 

I am not sure what an ethics committee can uncover.  He admitted it, he apologized, she accepted his apology. But let me understand this, if you forcibly kiss and grope one woman, that is ok?  More than one, that is where the line is crossed?

[Winston Legthigh]

I am not sure what an ethics committee can uncover.  He admitted it, he apologized, she accepted his apology. But let me understand this, if you forcibly kiss and grope one woman, that is ok?  More than one, that is where the line is crossed?

The ethics committee could uncover more examples of this behavior, and get more victims to come forward.

 

If the forced kiss is true, it is not OK.

[jff]

I am not sure what an ethics committee can uncover.  He admitted it, he apologized, she accepted his apology. But let me understand this, if you forcibly kiss and grope one woman, that is ok?  More than one, that is where the line is crossed?

 

Not OK, but we should all be able to agree that a person who does something terrible once, realizes they did something terrible, apologizes with sincerity, never does it again, and fights for the victims of said behavior is a much better person than someone who repeats a terrible act many times over a long period of time, accuses their victims of wrongdoing to deflect from their own behavior, and doesn't apologize or admit guilt.  The first person is much more redeemable than the second, and that counts for a lot.

 

Having said that, we don't know the extent of Franken's or Moore's acts, so I'm just going on what we know now.

[KevinG]

Not OK, but we should all be able to agree that a person who does something terrible once, realizes they did something terrible, apologizes with sincerity, never does it again, and fights for the victims of said behavior is a much better person than someone who repeats a terrible act many times over a long period of time, accuses their victims of wrongdoing to deflect from their own behavior, and doesn't apologize or admit guilt.  The first person is much more redeemable than the second, and that counts for a lot.

 

Having said that, we don't know the extent of Franken's or Moore's acts, so I'm just going on what we know now.

 

The only reason that Franken apologized is because someone came forward and confronted him about it.  So, either he did knew he did something wrong in 2006 and didn't say anything, or he thought what he did was ok, until someone came forward.  So not a good look either way.  

 

I am not saying what Franken did was in anyway equivalent to that of what Moore did.  Moore is a special type of horrible person and should not only be forced to drop out of the race, but be arrested and charged with a crime.  

[Magnetized]

Franken resign over this? Hell no. He is a bright light in the Senate and there is absolutely no reason for him to step aside just because of one stupid transgression. Now if more comes out, maybe so, but he has already admitted to some pretty heavy drug use in his past and that didn't seem to bother people. This was just a sophomoric stunt and an overreaching pass at a woman. It shouldn't be excused but I don't think there are too many powerful men who don't have similarly icky skeletons in their closets.

[John Smith]

A second woman has come forward to accuse Franken of groping her during a photo.  

[KevinG]

Franken resign over this? Hell no. He is a bright light in the Senate and there is absolutely no reason for him to step aside just because of one stupid transgression. Now if more comes out, maybe so, but he has already admitted to some pretty heavy drug use in his past and that didn't seem to bother people. This was just a sophomoric stunt and an overreaching pass at a woman. It shouldn't be excused but I don't think there are too many powerful men who don't have similarly icky skeletons in their closets.

 

The mental black flips going on to rationalize this behavior is astounding. 

 

Let me break down what you actually said:

 

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because he is a good senator. 

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because it was only one woman.  But more than one (or two?), that is bad.

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because he admitted to bad stuff in the past and people are ok with that.  

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because it was a dumb and stupid thing to try.  

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because there are ickier people out there that have done way worse.  

 

You know what.  It is not ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her.  It is never ok to do that.  It should not be allowed and normalized, it should not be acceptable.  It is not acceptable when the President bragged he did it, it is not acceptable when a Senator was caught doing it.  People that hold this much power need to respect and treat every person out there equally and not as objects that is there to do with what they want.  It sucks, Franken was a good senator and someone I quite admired, now that is gone.  The Democrats had a chance to take the high moral ground and let the American people know how completely unacceptable behavior like this is.  But they didn't.  It just goes more to normalizing and rationalization of abhorrent behavior.   

 

And stop with this bullshit statement that behavior shouldn't be excused, because that is exactly what you are doing.  

[Winston Legthigh]

The mental black flips going on to rationalize this behavior is astounding. 

 

Let me break down what you actually said:

 

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because he is a good senator. 

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because it was only one woman.  But more than one (or two?), that is bad.

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because he admitted to bad stuff in the past and people are ok with that.  

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because it was a dumb and stupid thing to try.  

It is ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her, because there are ickier people out there that have done way worse.  

 

You know what.  It is not ok that he groped a woman and tried to forcibly kiss her.  It is never ok to do that.  It should not be allowed and normalized, it should not be acceptable.  It is not acceptable when the President bragged he did it, it is not acceptable when a Senator was caught doing it.  People that hold this much power need to respect and treat every person out there equally and not as objects that is there to do with what they want.  It sucks, Franken was a good senator and someone I quite admired, now that is gone.  The Democrats had a chance to take the high moral ground and let the American people know how completely unacceptable behavior like this is.  But they didn't.  It just goes more to normalizing and rationalization of abhorrent behavior.   

 

And stop with this bullshit statement that behavior shouldn't be excused, because that is exactly what you are doing.  

 

There's no equivalence between what Magnetized said and what you wrote that he "actually" said.

 

Magnetized simply claimed that Franken shouldn't immediately resign, right now. There's nothing that he said that says what Franken did is OK. That's not rationalizing the behavior. Some people disagree with you. You think Franken's political career should end, immediately. Some people don't think that he should step down, including Leeann Tweeden. 

 

It's possible to think that what he did is not OK, and also think that he shouldn't end his political career over it.  

[lost highway]

It's possible to think that what he did is not OK, and also think that he shouldn't end his political career over it.  

 

Yes, this exactly.

 

Sexual harassment is never acceptable. That does not mean that all transgressions are the same. If you look at what Louis C.K. did, versus what Roy Moore was doing, versus what Donald Trump allegedly has done, or Bill Clinton for that matter- they're all different. Yes, they are all men using their power in unethical ways but the degree and implications vary.

 

It is high time all of these skeletons come out of all of these closets. This is a great opportunity to push back against rampant patriarchy. That does not mean that we should become politically correct puritans who treat every act of deviance alike and prepare to nuke the career of anyone who ever behaved like an asshole. Franken is not Cosby, he is not Weinstein.

[KevinG]

There's no equivalence between what Magnetized said and what you wrote that he "actually" said.

 

Magnetized simply claimed that Franken shouldn't immediately resign, right now. There's nothing that he said that says what Franken did is OK. That's not rationalizing the behavior. Some people disagree with you. You think Franken's political career should end, immediately. Some people don't think that he should step down, including Leeann Tweeden. 

 

It's possible to think that what he did is not OK, and also think that he shouldn't end his political career over it.  

 

By letting him remain in office, to continue to serve and represent the people of Minnesota after this, you are saying what he did was OK.  At what point do we continue to let people abuse their power to treat others like objects for them to have?  He needs to answer for what he did.  The right thing to do is step down.  The people of MN should demand this.  We need to expect more from the people who represent us. 

 

 

 

Sexual harassment is never acceptable. That does not mean that all transgressions are the same. If you look at what Louis C.K. did, versus what Roy Moore was doing, versus what Donald Trump allegedly has done, or Bill Clinton for that matter- they're all different. Yes, they are all men using their power in unethical ways but the degree and implications vary.

 

It is high time all of these skeletons come out of all of these closets. This is a great opportunity to push back against rampant patriarchy. That does not mean that we should become politically correct puritans who treat every act of deviance alike and prepare to nuke the career of anyone who ever behaved like an asshole. Franken is not Cosby, he is not Weinstein.

 

No Franken is not as others, but that doesn't excuse him, nor does that absolve him from punishment.  If I am at a Christmas Party and my boss grabs my ass and tries to kiss me, I would complain to HR and my boss would be fired. Yes it is not as bad as the guy masturbating into the punch bowl?  No, but it still is a fire-able offense.  My company would not want that person representing the company.  Why would we accept anything less from the people who represent us?  If we start allowing these little things to slide by, we end up with guys like Trump and Moore in positions of great power.  Let's put a stop to it.  Let's just say, sexual harassment is never acceptable and leave it at that. Qualifiers, and comparisons aside, sexual harassment is never acceptable, from a senator, an office worker, from anyone.    

[tinnitus photography]

By letting him remain in office, to continue to serve and represent the people of Minnesota after this, you are saying what he did was OK.  At what point do we continue to let people abuse their power to treat others like objects for them to have?  He needs to answer for what he did.  The right thing to do is step down.  The people of MN should demand this.  We need to expect more from the people who represent us. 

 

the voters of MN should decide his fate.

 

the first accusation certainly has more than a whiff of political motivation, given her appearances on Hannity and the like. the rehearsed kiss? who really knows what happened there.  the photo just seems sophomoric rather than actual groping. i mean, would you feel up a sleeping woman in front of a guy w/ a camera and others around? 

 

 

we'll see what the latest accusation turns up. 

if we are going all-in on a policy of zero tolerance regardless of when it happened, then we might as well get ready for a giant turnover in our government positions.

[Winston Legthigh]

If I am at a Christmas Party and my boss grabs my ass and tries to kiss me, I would complain to HR and my boss would be fired. 

 

If he's an exemplary employee, and this is the first time this has happened, there's no chance he would be fired. 

 

Virtually all HR best practices models call for a chance to rehabilitate before termination.

 

On the other hand, if he's already received a warning over such behavior, or if he's a guy they're just waiting for an excuse to fire, then that's another story. 

[KevinG]

the voters of MN should decide his fate.

 

He is not up for re-election until 2020.  Shouldn't they have had the change to know this when he first ran?  If this was out in the open and a known story, then I guess the people of MN did decide, but they were not privy to this, so in essence they didn't get to decide. 

 

 

if we are going all-in on a policy of zero tolerance regardless of when it happened, then we might as well get ready for a giant turnover in our government positions.

 

 You say this like it is a bad thing.  

 

 

If he's an exemplary employee, and this is the first time this has happened, there's no chance he would be fired. 

 

 

 

Many companies rightful have a zero tolerance policy when it comes to sexual harassment, including the one I work for.  

[jff]

By letting him remain in office, to continue to serve and represent the people of Minnesota after this, you are saying what he did was OK.  At what point do we continue to let people abuse their power to treat others like objects for them to have?  He needs to answer for what he did.  The right thing to do is step down.  The people of MN should demand this.  We need to expect more from the people who represent us. 

 

 

 

No Franken is not as others, but that doesn't excuse him, nor does that absolve him from punishment.  If I am at a Christmas Party and my boss grabs my ass and tries to kiss me, I would complain to HR and my boss would be fired. Yes it is not as bad as the guy masturbating into the punch bowl?  No, but it still is a fire-able offense.  My company would not want that person representing the company.  Why would we accept anything less from the people who represent us?  If we start allowing these little things to slide by, we end up with guys like Trump and Moore in positions of great power.  Let's put a stop to it.  Let's just say, sexual harassment is never acceptable and leave it at that. Qualifiers, and comparisons aside, sexual harassment is never acceptable, from a senator, an office worker, from anyone.    

 

So, Al Franken's punishment, according to you, is that he should never be able to hold any kind of job ever again?

[lost highway]

The only problem with the office party analogy is it assumes he sexually harassed someone on the job as a senator. He didn't. It was when he was a comedian.

 

I agree with the other comment that it is up to voters to decide, it's unfortunate that he's not up for re-election next year because that would seem the most fitting trial for his character.

[KevinG]

So, Al Franken's punishment, according to you, is that he should never be able to hold any kind of job ever again?

 

 Any job?  No, if MSNBC wants to hire him or whatever, that is fine.  Hell if he wanted to run for office again, he could, as long as all his transgressions were out in the open.  In my perfect world it would go down like this, Franken would get up on the floor of the Senate and apologize, not only to Tweeden, but to the people of Minnesota and to the citizens of the United States.  He would state unequivocally that rejects behavior like this and it is not something becoming of a representative of the US.  And state because he really has lost the trust of the people of MN he will step down.  But also he could state that know that this is all out in the open he still intends to run in 2020, and hopes that the people of MN would trust him again.  

[lost highway]

 Any job?  No, if MSNBC wants to hire him or whatever, that is fine.  Hell if he wanted to run for office again, he could, as long as all his transgressions were out in the open.  In my perfect world it would go down like this, Franken would get up on the floor of the Senate and apologize, not only to Tweeden, but to the people of Minnesota and to the citizens of the United States.  He would state unequivocally that rejects behavior like this and it is not something becoming of a representative of the US.  And state because he really has lost the trust of the people of MN he will step down.  But also he could state that know that this is all out in the open he still intends to run in 2020, and hopes that the people of MN would trust him again.  

 

Sounds pretty good to me.

[tinnitus photography]

 Any job?  No, if MSNBC wants to hire him or whatever, that is fine.  Hell if he wanted to run for office again, he could, as long as all his transgressions were out in the open.  In my perfect world it would go down like this, Franken would get up on the floor of the Senate and apologize, not only to Tweeden, but to the people of Minnesota and to the citizens of the United States.  He would state unequivocally that rejects behavior like this and it is not something becoming of a representative of the US.  And state because he really has lost the trust of the people of MN he will step down.  But also he could state that know that this is all out in the open he still intends to run in 2020, and hopes that the people of MN would trust him again.  

i think you have unreasonable expectations.

 

 

[KevinG]

i think you have unreasonable expectations.

 

 

 

I have the expectation that women are treated like people and not as objects.  I have the expectation that a woman should not be afraid to be alone with a man, because he might try to grab her or kiss her.  I have the expectation that a woman isn't afraid to go out at night.  I have the expectation that a woman can walk down the street and not be catcalled.  

 

Our society has normalized this behavior.  Played it off as sophomoric, or boys will be boys, or locker room talk.  You know what, it has to stop. Yes it sucks, Franken won't be the last "good person" to be caught up in this (looking at you Charlie Rose.)  But a reckoning has to happen, we as a society have to let it be known that this behavior is unacceptable.  So hey maybe the next guy will think twice and not treat a colleague like a piece of meat.  

[lost highway]

I have the expectation that women are treated like people and not as objects.  I have the expectation that a woman should not be afraid to be alone with a man, because he might try to grab her or kiss her.  I have the expectation that a woman isn't afraid to go out at night.  I have the expectation that a woman can walk down the street and not be catcalled.   

 

I don't think anyone on here- including the ones arguing with you here- would disagree with any of this.

 

Although, I will say my inner libertarian (which is about 5% of my political brain) has to wonder how one would stop catcalling.

[KevinG]

Although, I will say my inner libertarian (which is about 5% of my political brain) has to wonder how one would stop catcalling.

I don't call anyone the N word. Whereas 100 years ago it would have been commonplace.

[tinnitus photography]

I have the expectation that women are treated like people and not as objects.  I have the expectation that a woman should not be afraid to be alone with a man, because he might try to grab her or kiss her.  I have the expectation that a woman isn't afraid to go out at night.  I have the expectation that a woman can walk down the street and not be catcalled.  

 

Our society has normalized this behavior.  Played it off as sophomoric, or boys will be boys, or locker room talk.  You know what, it has to stop. Yes it sucks, Franken won't be the last "good person" to be caught up in this (looking at you Charlie Rose.)  But a reckoning has to happen, we as a society have to let it be known that this behavior is unacceptable.  So hey maybe the next guy will think twice and not treat a colleague like a piece of meat.  

 

maybe sometimes, the woman grabs and kisses the man.

 

 

 

 

sorry, i don't think that a fairly ambiguous situation like Franken's is the place for zero tolerance, unlike the Weinsteins/Seagals/Allens/Cosbys/CKs of the world.

[KevinG]

maybe sometimes, the woman grabs and kisses the man.

 

 

 

 

Wow, there is so many things wrong with this statement.  

[tinnitus photography]

so many it done fucked up your grammar!