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MLB 2008 PT 2

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Oil Can Boyd

Oil Can Boyd

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To bring the discussion from last week full circle, I'd like to say that, apparently, for Mets fans, having a pitcher get 3 outs with a 3 run lead in the 9th for a save isn't such a gimme.

Exactly. And to keep beating the already dead horse and to reinforce the point that much of the importance of the closer is psychological, I saw one of the Phillies (Jimmie Rollins, I think) say that once they knew Wagner was not available to the Mets, it gave them some confidence that they could come back in the 9th.

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bjorn_skurj

bjorn_skurj

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The stay is mostly used by people who aren't aware that there are better options. If K-rod and rauch have the same stats with the exception of saves, then you are giving one guy credit for something he has no effect on; the skill of his teammates.

 

Unless you think frankie makes his teammates better. I hope you don't.

Do you not think there is some sort of psychological angle to baseball? Many have observed that having a good pitcher on the mound raises the morale of his defense a bit. You can't quantify it in a SABR sense, but I don't think it can be explained away. There is in sports a sort of group gestalt that makes a team more (or less) than the sum of its individual players' talents.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Do you not think there is some sort of psychological angle to baseball? Many have observed that having a good pitcher on the mound raises the morale of his defense a bit. You can't quantify it in a SABR sense, but I don't think it can be explained away. There is in sports a sort of group gestalt that makes a team more (or less) than the sum of its individual players' talents.

 

Sure, the psychological impact has a little to do with the game. But it's impact is far overstated. More often than not, teams are not better than their individual talents.

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bjorn_skurj

bjorn_skurj

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OK. My next question - do teams with "bullpens by committee" win more often than teams with designated closers? And I would be in favor of a "clutch save" stat - recording all three outs in an inning when the team was up by only a run, or coming in with the tying run in scoring position and finishing the game.

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MrRain422

MrRain422

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I think there probably aren't enough teams who do the 'closer by committee' thing to be able reach a real conclusion, but I would guess that it's probably roughly equal in relation to the quality of the team.

 

I really just stopped by here, though, to mention how awesome Armando Galarraga is.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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woo, the mets can hold on to a lead :D

If the lead was 3 runs or less that requires a closer doing his job, correct? They mark that in the records by calling it a "save." Wagner saved the lead and consequently, the win. Good for him.

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radiokills

radiokills

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If the lead was 3 runs or less that requires a closer doing his job, correct? They mark that in the records by calling it a "save." Wagner saved the lead and consequently, the win. Good for him.

 

i think all that was implied when i used the phrase "hold on." you see, last night, they also had a three run lead and were unable to win. if i had posted last night, i would have probably said, "wow, the mets are unable to hold on to a lead." i am genuinely sorry for not using proper baseball terminology.

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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i think all that was implied when i used the phrase "hold on." you see, last night, they also had a three run lead and were unable to win. if i had posted last night, i would have probably said, "wow, the mets are unable to hold on to a lead." i am genuinely sorry for not using proper baseball terminology.

No, no, no. I'm not ragging on you. Honestly. It was just my backwards way of bringing up the subject of (un-)/importance of closers we've had around here of late. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

ed. I think it's great that Wagner did what he's paid to do.

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radiokills

radiokills

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No, no, no. I'm not ragging on you. Honestly. It was just my backwards way of bringing up the subject of (un-)/importance of closers we've had around here of late. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

communicating via interweb has a way of creating a fair amount of those. no worries :thumbup

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Lammycat

Lammycat

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Peter Gammons just said that Francisco Rodriguez should be the AL MVP based on his 42 saves (including one tonight for getting one out (and throwing one pitch) with a three run lead).

shhh. He's a "closer," not a really good pitcher.

 

Over-rated!

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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Whatever.

 

I'll just say that saying K-rod should win the MVP is almost as dumb as that guy who said Todd Jones should win the Cy Young last year because he lead the league in saves, or something.

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bobbob1313

bobbob1313

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OK. My next question - do teams with "bullpens by committee" win more often than teams with designated closers? And I would be in favor of a "clutch save" stat - recording all three outs in an inning when the team was up by only a run, or coming in with the tying run in scoring position and finishing the game.

 

I would say they don't only because the type of teams (Aside from the sox in 03) that go with a closer by comittee tend to just not be as good overall, thus they don't have as many good pitchers in general. You put Frankie Rodriguez on the Nationals and he's lucky to have 40 saves at the end of a season.

 

(including one tonight for getting one out (and throwing one pitch) with a three run lead).

 

HE GOT A SAVE!!!! HE GAVE HIS TEAM THE WARM FUZZIES IN THEIR TUMMY! GIVE THAT MAN A 15 MILLION A YEAR!

 

Scot Shields has been slightly less effective for more innings than Rodriguez over the course of their careers, and as such, has probably been as valuable, and most people don't know his name. He's also been as consistent.

 

Frankie WARP Career: 36.9

Scot: 30.6

 

So basically a win per year. For all those saves.

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MrRain422

MrRain422

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shhh. He's a "closer," not a really good pitcher.

 

Over-rated!

 

Who said that K-Rod isn't a good pitcher? I think everyone acknowledged that he's having an excellent season -- some of us have just disputed whether his save total is a good way of measuring it.

 

Let's just look at a couple of American League relievers from 2007:

Joe Borowski: 65 2/3 IP, 5.07 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 58/17 K/BB, 45 SV

Hideki Okajima: 69 IP, 2.22 ERA, 0.97 WHIP, 63/17 K/BB, 5 SV

 

Which of these two guys helped his team more?

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Gobias Industries

Gobias Industries

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Who said that K-Rod isn't a good pitcher? I think everyone acknowledged that he's having an excellent season -- some of us have just disputed whether his save total is a good way of measuring it.

 

Let's just look at a couple of American League relievers from 2007:

Joe Borowski: 65 2/3 IP, 5.07 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 58/17 K/BB, 45 SV

Hideki Okajima: 69 IP, 2.22 ERA, 0.97 WHIP, 63/17 K/BB, 5 SV

 

Which of these two guys helped his team more?

 

Not Borowski, I can tell you that. What a wanker, he costed us more than a few games.

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bjorn_skurj

bjorn_skurj

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M-E-T-S Mets METS METS!!!!!!

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