Brand Spanking New Election Thread

[bobbob1313]

No matter what your reasons, if you don't vote for something you agree with, that something gets one less vote. It usually doesn't, but it might make a difference. I am not unsympathetic to third parties and agree with them on many things. I just don't think they'll ever reach critical mass to make any sort of positive difference, so supporting them is supporting a spoiler.

 

I'm just going to repost what you responded to and maybe it'll work this time.

 

"And Bjorn, the implication there is that I inherently disagree with all of those things. I'm not far left. There is actually a lot of doubt in my mind about most issues, because every issue is not always black and white, which is how a two party system has to represent it."

[Edie]

In my opinion, voting straight down a party line shows as much apathy for the future as staying home. It's intellectual apathy.

 

I don't vote straight democratic. I voted for Reagan twice for instance.

[Analogman]

I vote straight democratic.

[Edie]

I definitely lean more left, and way more so in recent years as the republican party increasingly lost me in their fog of religious righteousness. I voted for Dukakis, Clinton x2, Gore and Kerry (and Obama).

[LouieB]

So because there are two many other parties, we should just keep it the way it is? That's stupid.

 

Do it by past success, or ballot access, or registration. There's no excuse besides just the two parties being afraid of losing their grip on power.

 

 

And Bjorn, the implication there is that I inherently disagree with all of those things. I'm not far left. There is actually a lot of doubt in my mind about most issues, because every issue is not always black and white, which is how a two party system has to represent it.

Right bobbob, totally stupid, but that's sort of the way the founding fathers set shit up in this country. If you really want a multi-party system you are going to have to move to Israel or somewhere that a multi-party exists in real life. Better shart learing some Hebrew though, that will help.

 

The US of A had some opportunities to have a third party, read a bit of history, but it didn't really work out. I voted Green in the last IL election, but even in that case the Greens got only 10% and are broke and nationally they don't do squat between elections. Neither did the fabulous Ralph Nader. He gets on board the third party bandwagon (which ever third party he choses at the time) and a third party never gets organized....yea...organized..that's the ticket. Unless a concerted and long term and agreed upon third party is established in the way that the Dems and Republics are now organized with lots of backing and lots of ongoing organization, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Once you are a bit older and maybe wiser (and I am not really being patronizing, age does bring a touch of wisdom), nearly everything that impacts the "system" takes enormous amounts of organization which includes time, money, and interest by a significant group of people (ever try and organize anything, I think you will know I am right about this.) I am more than willing and have been since before you were born to join a third party, but one just doesn't exist. On the left there are a multitude of sectarians (and have been for at least a century or more....read some history) arguing about minutae. At least vote Communist or Socialist (if such a party still exists..) if you want a third party that someday may represent the working class. Or start locally which is where most things start and get involved with your local Green Party or Liberatians ands spend the next 20 or 30 years going to boring and pointless meetings four nights or more a week. Otherwise you are just shitting yourself. The reason we have the two parties we do is because they are established, have some recognizable features (some which as you correctly say are too similar) and have the resources to promote themselves. Everyone else is pretty much just a bunch of broke cranks talking trash about the folks who really are in power.

 

I am sympathetic and even sort of agree, but look long and hard...do you really really really think there is no difference between Obama and McCain, either personally or politically? Obama is a bright young man of color and McCain is a bitter angry old guy still fighting the Vietnam war in Iraq. Just on that alone most people should be able to make a rational and comfortable choice.

 

LouieB

[bjorn_skurj]

I'm just going to repost what you responded to and maybe it'll work this time.

 

"And Bjorn, the implication there is that I inherently disagree with all of those things. I'm not far left. There is actually a lot of doubt in my mind about most issues, because every issue is not always black and white, which is how a two party system has to represent it."

I can read quite well, Chris. My response was a comment on your apparent reluctance/refusal to participate in a system you disdain and what could happen as a result of that.

[jc4prez]

Louie I gave you a ton of reasons of why obama/biden is not a good pick and I even forgot to mention that obama support nuclear power.

[Analogman]

I definitely lean more left, and way more so in recent years as the republican party increasingly lost me in their fog of religious righteousness. I voted for Dukakis, Clinton x2, Gore and Kerry (and Obama).

 

Although I turned 18 in 1984, I did not vote for the first time until the 1992 election.

[LouieB]

I can read quite well, Chris.

Actually apparently I can't read because I just read the quote that bobob is not far left. So what DO you represent?? What do you believe in?? Or are you simply yanking our chains for the fuck of it because you are too wimpy to decide? Seriously bobbob, what do you want? What is inherently good about a third party if it doesn't represent anything. This is EXACTLY why there isn't a third party.

 

In a very real sense you have to pick a side and stick with it (which is why just like Analogman I am a Democrat and NEVER EVER EVER EVER voted for Reagan.....sorry Edie.....!!!) What is so fucking wrong with Obama wanting to reform health care, get us out of Iraq, use diplomacy before the shooting starts, invest in alternative sources of energy, continue to allow women the right to choose an abortion, wocka wocka (I just love Dan Savage...) and all the other stuff he is at least talking about. Most of it sounds pretty darn good and something I DO support, including trying to make the government more efficient and responsive to the needs of its citizens....

 

Good gawd man...what is your position on the issues?? I am NOT joining your third party if you have NO PLATFORM!!!!

 

LouieB

[bobbob1313]

Right bobbob, totally stupid, but that's sort of the way the founding fathers set shit up in this country. If you really want a multi-party system you are going to have to move to Israel or somewhere that a multi-party exists in real life. Better shart learing some Hebrew though, that will help.

 

The US of A had some opportunities to have a third party, read a bit of history, but it didn't really work out. I voted Green in the last IL election, but even in that case the Greens got only 10% and are broke and nationally they don't do squat between elections. Neither did the fabulous Ralph Nader. He gets on board the third party bandwagon (which ever third party he choses at the time) and a third party never gets organized....yea...organized..that's the ticket. Unless a concerted and long term and agreed upon third party is established in the way that the Dems and Republics are now organized with lots of backing and lots of ongoing organization, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Once you are a bit older and maybe wiser (and I am not really being patronizing, age does bring a touch of wisdom), nearly everything that impacts the "system" takes enormous amounts of organization which includes time, money, and interest by a significant group of people (ever try and organize anything, I think you will know I am right about this.) I am more than willing and have been since before you were born to join a third party, but one just doesn't exist. On the left there are a multitude of sectarians (and have been for at least a century or more....read some history) arguing about minutae. At least vote Communist or Socialist (if such a party still exists..) if you want a third party that someday may represent the working class. Or start locally which is where most things start and get involved with your local Green Party or Liberatians ands spend the next 20 or 30 years going to boring and pointless meetings four nights or more a week. Otherwise you are just shitting yourself. The reason we have the two parties we do is because they are established, have some recognizable features (some which as you correctly say are too similar) and have the resources to promote themselves. Everyone else is pretty much just a bunch of broke cranks talking trash about the folks who really are in power.

 

I am sympathetic and even sort of agree, but look long and hard...do you really really really think there is no difference between Obama and McCain, either personally or politically? Obama is a bright young man of color and McCain is a bitter angry old guy still fighting the Vietnam war in Iraq. Just on that alone most people should be able to make a rational and comfortable choice.

 

LouieB

 

I can't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but that doesn't mean I have to vote for one of the two parties if I feel neither represents me. Why would I support a group I am not philosophically aligned with and which I think perpetuates a system that leaves the voice of most of America unheard?

 

And it really irked me that you brought up Obama's race there at the end. Yuck.

 

And I don't think anyone has given me a legitimate reason why minority parties shjouldn't be allowed in national debates with the two main candidates. The only reasons I've seen are that there are "too many", which is a bullshit reason, or just a restatement of my claim that the two main parties are afraid that Americans might be exposed to other ideas.

 

I can read quite well, Chris. My response was a comment on your apparent reluctance/refusal to participate in a system you disdain and what could happen as a result of that.

 

But like I said, I don't inherently disagree with all of the decisions McCain might make, so it's not like my opposition to him is strong enough to vote against him and for Obama. I'd rather vote with my conscience against both, since both will do things I like and things I dislike.

[jc4prez]

Right bobbob, totally stupid, but that's sort of the way the founding fathers set shit up in this country. If you really want a multi-party system you are going to have to move to Israel or somewhere that a multi-party exists in real life. Better shart learing some Hebrew though, that will help.

 

The US of A had some opportunities to have a third party, read a bit of history, but it didn't really work out. I voted Green in the last IL election, but even in that case the Greens got only 10% and are broke and nationally they don't do squat between elections. Neither did the fabulous Ralph Nader. He gets on board the third party bandwagon (which ever third party he choses at the time) and a third party never gets organized....yea...organized..that's the ticket. Unless a concerted and long term and agreed upon third party is established in the way that the Dems and Republics are now organized with lots of backing and lots of ongoing organization, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Once you are a bit older and maybe wiser (and I am not really being patronizing, age does bring a touch of wisdom), nearly everything that impacts the "system" takes enormous amounts of organization which includes time, money, and interest by a significant group of people (ever try and organize anything, I think you will know I am right about this.) I am more than willing and have been since before you were born to join a third party, but one just doesn't exist. On the left there are a multitude of sectarians (and have been for at least a century or more....read some history) arguing about minutae. At least vote Communist or Socialist (if such a party still exists..) if you want a third party that someday may represent the working class. Or start locally which is where most things start and get involved with your local Green Party or Liberatians ands spend the next 20 or 30 years going to boring and pointless meetings four nights or more a week. Otherwise you are just shitting yourself. The reason we have the two parties we do is because they are established, have some recognizable features (some which as you correctly say are too similar) and have the resources to promote themselves. Everyone else is pretty much just a bunch of broke cranks talking trash about the folks who really are in power.

 

I am sympathetic and even sort of agree, but look long and hard...do you really really really think there is no difference between Obama and McCain, either personally or politically? Obama is a bright young man of color and McCain is a bitter angry old guy still fighting the Vietnam war in Iraq. Just on that alone most people should be able to make a rational and comfortable choice.

 

LouieB

 

 

Nader didn't disappear, he just didn't run for another public office.

 

The green party is disorganized thats why nader left the party and he also happens to be a socialist.

 

There is nothing in the constitution about this being a one party system.

 

Are you aware that Lincoln was a third party candidate? The republican party was just getting things going back then.

 

Its only a matter of citizens coming together. For example:

 

[jc4prez]

I can't necessarily disagree with what you are saying, but that doesn't mean I have to vote for one of the two parties if I feel neither represents me. Why would I support a group I am not philosophically aligned with and which I think perpetuates a system that leaves the voice of most of America unheard?

 

And it really irked me that you brought up Obama's race there at the end. Yuck.

 

And I don't think anyone has given me a legitimate reason why minority parties shjouldn't be allowed in national debates with the two main candidates. The only reasons I've seen are that there are "too many", which is a bullshit reason, or just a restatement of my claim that the two main parties are afraid that Americans might be exposed to other ideas.

 

 

 

But like I said, I don't inherently disagree with all of the decisions McCain might make, so it's not like my opposition to him is strong enough to vote against him and for Obama. I'd rather vote with my conscience against both, since both will do things I like and things I dislike.

 

http://opendebates.org/

 

There are no good reasons.

[LouieB]

Louie I gave you a ton of reasons of why obama/biden is not a good pick and I even forgot to mention that obama support nuclear power.

Wow..how 1970s, you don't support nuclear power...then you better move out of NE IL because we run on the stuff. Nuclear power is not something I am in favor of either, but do you want coal power, petroleum power, what? Nuclear power isn't going away any time soon. It didn't go away when we protested it in the 70s and it isn't now either. So let's not support Obama so that McCain can stack the Supreme Court with a bunch of right wing justices....right.....

 

 

Although I turned 18 in 1984, I did not vote for the first time until the 1992 election.

I turned 21 in 1971 (yea the voting age was different then) and because I considered myself an anarchist I didn't vote until 1976 until the president of my union said it might be a good idea to vote for Carter. Youth gets to not vote if they don't want to I suppose, which is why all the old farts keep voting and electing Republicans.....

 

LouieB

[jc4prez]

Wow..how 1970s, you don't support nuclear power...then you better move out of NE IL because we run on the stuff. Nuclear power is not something I am in favor of either, but do you want coal power, petroleum power, what? Nuclear power isn't going away any time soon. It didn't go away when we protested it in the 70s and it isn't now either. So let's not support Obama so that McCain can stack the Supreme Court with a bunch of right wing justices....right.....

 

 

I turned 21 in 1971 (yea the voting age was different then) and because I considered myself an anarchist I didn't vote until 1976 until the president of my union said it might be a good idea to vote for Carter. Youth gets to not vote if they don't want to I suppose, which is why all the old farts keep voting and electing Republicans.....

 

LouieB

 

 

And carter sure did wonders for the military budget.

 

 

And no i don't support nuclear power. If we were subsidizing renewable energy instead of oil maybe we wouldn't have this problem.

 

So your argument is based soley on his choosing supreme court justices?

[bobbob1313]

Actually apparently I can't read because I just read the quote that bobob is not far left. So what DO you represent?? What do you believe in?? Or are you simply yanking our chains for the fuck of it because you are too wimpy to decide? Seriously bobbob, what do you want? What is inherently good about a third party if it doesn't represent anything. This is EXACTLY why there isn't a third party.

 

In a very real sense you have to pick a side and stick with it (which is why just like Analogman I am a Democrat and NEVER EVER EVER EVER voted for Reagan.....sorry Edie.....!!!) What is so fucking wrong with Obama wanting to reform health care, get us out of Iraq, use diplomacy before the shooting starts, invest in alternative sources of energy, continue to allow women the right to choose an abortion, wocka wocka (I just love Dan Savage...) and all the other stuff he is at least talking about. Most of it sounds pretty darn good and something I DO support, including trying to make the government more efficient and responsive to the needs of its citizens....

 

Good gawd man...what is your position on the issues?? I am NOT joining your third party if you have NO PLATFORM!!!!

 

LouieB

 

I'm not sure if you can hear me from all the way up where you are anyways, I might have to shout from down here.

 

I don't believe Obama's economic plans will help bring us out of the recession we are in.

I don't buy that he will get us out of Iraq in 18 months or whatever his timeline is, and I don't buy that it's the right move anyways.

I don't buy that we will see any more legitimate change in energy policy under Barrack as McCain (and at least McCain supports domestic drilling, which could potentially buy more time for alternative sources).

I don't buy that McCain would be able to overcome the significant hurdles that stand in the way of making abortion illegal, even if he wanted to.

 

And you answered your question in your own post. It's stuff you support. Not stuff I support. With all of your age and wisdom, how can you not understand that? I know I'm an idiot, but it makes perfect fucking sense from where I'm standing.

 

Personally, I don't support any one third party, because I'm not sure where I stand on most issues. Because most issues don't have a simple answer. If you think that's wimpy or whatever, then that's cool. That's my biggest problem with the two parties is that everything is black and white with them (Or red and blue), and that's not how the world works. Both parties adopt a "with us or against us" approach to things, and that doesn't work. A doctrine of shooting first works sometimes, but sometimes you have to talk first. It all depends on the situation, as does every issue.

 

I do happen to support nuclear power though. If we are going to talk about renewable resources, that seems like a pretty good place to start.

[Tweedling]

I don't vote straight democratic. I voted for Reagan twice for instance.

[Elixir Sue]

We had some fishy stuff going on here in 06. It seems real easy to cheat. I am tempted to sit around there all day and keep an eye on things.

Speaking of which: attorneys and law students, help out! http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/vpcvol2

[lost highway]

I don't believe Obama's economic plans will help bring us out of the recession we are in.

I don't buy that he will get us out of Iraq in 18 months or whatever his timeline is, and I don't buy that it's the right move anyways.

I don't buy that we will see any more legitimate change in energy policy under Barrack as McCain (and at least McCain supports domestic drilling, which could potentially buy more time for alternative sources).

I don't buy that McCain would be able to overcome the significant hurdles that stand in the way of making abortion illegal, even if he wanted to.

 

The most glaring hitch in McCain's financial strategy is this: How does keeping both tax cuts, and aggressive military spending get the U.S. out of the biggest deficit of our lifetimes?

 

Let's face it. Bush style foreign policy and military spending has gotten us half way up China's ass. One more person in office with the same strategy (in this respect McCain looks an awful lot like Bush) and we will be on our way to becoming a Chinese province.

[Sir Stewart]

I voted for:

That was my one non-Dem vote so far.

[Tweedling]

I voted for:

That was my one non-Dem vote so far.

remember the bumper stickers, "Role-Hemp"?

[Party @ the Moontower]

Well yea, but Obama is not evil in any event is he?? I am trying to figure out what is evil about him?

Think about who gets to appoint Supreme Court members and then tell me there isn't a radical difference between a President Obama and a President Palin, who could step into that position at any moment during a McCain presidency (or even if she doesn't who is McCain going to appoint??)

 

 

Blah Blah blah....we all perpetuate evil systems every hour of every day of the week.

 

I certainly understand the youngbloods here like bobbob and jc4pres (what would Neil Young do??) getting all self righteous about the world being black and white and therefore not not supporting the evils of Obama as President, but frankly I don't understand someone like Lammycat who is slightly more seasoned not understanding that with two choices in a real world, Darth Vader is not a candidate that will make any impact on a system that sucks. I have said this many times, I have no reason to believe that Obama is going to change things to the extent many of us would like to see them changed, but can you imagine for even one minute that Al Gore would have lead us into an endless war in Iraq?? Isn't THAT a significant difference between Al and George right there in hindsight? With all we do know about the Bush administration why on earth would anyone have voted Nader over Gore?? That's just plain goofy. I know that even Obama is now stuck with a war in Iraq that won't go away the day he is inagurated, but at least maybe maybe Barak won't follow the Bush doctrine (even though Sarah Palin doens't seem to know what it is...) and get us into another war that has nothing to do with US self preservation.

 

As for inviting all candidates to a debate. I have no problem with that, except none of those candidates is even on the radar at the moment (unlike Ross Perot and John Anderson before him) so until a third party candidate has a fighting chance of making a real impact, they should stay home.

 

Actually I suppose in some perverse way, a McCain Palin presidency will give Hillary Clinton a new lease on her political life. And maybe, just maybe youngbloods like jc and bob will look back with a bit more maturity at the end of another 4 or 8 years of this and think...what the fuck was I thinking?? Apparently 8 years of Bush Cheney simply wasn't enough for them.

 

LouieB

 

[Party @ the Moontower]

My conscience tells me to vote in the way most likely to prevent McCain/Palin from sitting in the White House. And that means Obama, who is both far from radical and far from evil.

 

So true. I fail to see how Obama is evil? Can someone explain that to me?

[fatheadfred]

Ok, Greenspan is dissing McCain's economic plan. This speaks for itself. McCain is reading Greenspan's latest book, which I have also read. This is lame. This is as lame as Palin not knowing shit about what is going on.

 

And like Bobbo says nothing is black and white but someone dissed Obama supporting nuke power...he is suggesting a minimal input of nuke, unlike McCain who wants much more, is pimping coal oil and is backseating wind, solar, and bio.

[Party @ the Moontower]

If you do not choose the lesser evil, do you not then get the greater?

 

 

Yes. Welcome Bush #2. How is Obama evil though?

[lost highway]

Here's a more optimistic spin on pragmatism:

 

Don't vote for the lesser of evils. Vote for the greatest good.

 

Ralph Nader and Ron Paul won't be a vote for the greatest good if they can't get in to office. Look into McCain's old caucasian hawk eyes when he talks about the military, that man can taste blood. Not the greatest good available to us.