New and Improved 3-ply election thread...

[ikol]

Before you take Boners word that Pelosi's "Partisan" Speach before the vote was the reason for the failure.

 

What does the singer from U2 have to do with anything?

[viatroy]

Bono's the King of Ireland.

 

I would wager a revised bill will be passed within a week.

 

 

yep

[LouieB]

McCain is going down in flames....

 

Oh right..he already did that a few years back..........

 

LouieB

[bjorn_skurj]

I keep meaning to tell McCain about the dream I had about the Vietnamese submarine aircraft carriers sneaking up the Hudson to attack Poughkeepsie.

[mountain bed]

McCain is going down in flames....

 

Oh right..he already did that a few years back..........

 

LouieB

Well...he's had a lot of rock bands tell him "don't use our song on your campaign". Maybe AC/DC would let him use "Shot Down In Flames".

 

I think Norbs is right - this thing will be hammered out soon (I hope).

[sweetheart-mine]

I keep meaning to tell McCain about the dream I had about the Vietnamese submarine aircraft carriers sneaking up the Hudson to attack Poughkeepsie.

the "law and order" crime fighters are going to beat them to it. i've noticed those guys really have it in for poughkeepsie. especially jerry orbach. of course, he's dead.

[sweetheart-mine]

upset republicans who voted no and who spoke to the press yesterday referred to their own alternate plans that according to them weren't even considered. i wonder what those plans are. they didn't say, and i find it hard to believe that they have main street's interests in mind any more than the other people who were working night and day on this thing. not that i think congress should be in the huge hurry bush and paulson were to basically loot the treasury, which is what their hurry sure looked like.

[John Smith]

funny though that Pelosi would take the time to give a speech outlining Bush turning Clinton's surplus into deficits, as if that had anything to do with the problems we face today.

 

I also don't understand why you think that a horrible bill that gets rammed through to a vote and didn't pass is unacceptable and evidence of Republicans' partisanship. So now it's bad to vote against a rushed, terrible bill that the majority of the country doesn't want? What have we come to now?

 

The speech was outlining the criminal fiscal irresponsibility of the Bush adminsitration. It needs to be said over and over and it needs to be part of the public record.

 

I think the bill suck period and am glad it failed. That however is a separate issue from the partisanship involved. The partisanship is evident right from the get go with the comments of McCain blaming Obama...for what? Not delivering republican votes? For not posturing enough like McCain? from Not phoning it in? Also the comments of Boner immediate pass blame to the democratsfor him not being able to deliver...he never intended to.

 

I just keep wondering when some non-finance company like ADM or GE or something will suddenly default on its loans and have its credit rating (and stock price) plummet. The crisis is real -- short term debt that is routinely lent and paid back is basically frozen right now, and not just here, but globally. This is one of the engines that drives our country and allows big and small business to conduct business and do simple things like make payroll. So the relative misconception that this was driven by "wall street fat cats" is largely wrong and worse, paints the problem with a frighteningly broad brush that could literally undo our "main street" economy.

 

This is a wory, but would cost CEO's thir jobs potentially with shareholder revolts and it is a reason lots more oversights need to be applied to the bill along with lots more definitions defining specifically what can be included.

[MrRain422]

This isn't accurate. Boehner was the only one making this ridiculous claim about Pelosi's speech being the reason for the vote, and it was clearly speculation on his part. The fact that Frank and Pelosi were leading the way on this bill should have been reason enough to vote against it.

 

So you think it's acceptable to shoot down a bill based on its sponsors rather than its merits?

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

They used to tell me I was building a dream, and so I followed the mob,

When there was earth to plow, or guns to bear, I was always there right on the job.

They used to tell me I was building a dream, with peace and glory ahead,

Why should I be standing in line, just waiting for bread?

 

Once I built a railroad, I made it run, made it race against time.

Once I built a railroad; now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime?

Once I built a tower, up to the sun, brick, and rivet, and lime;

Once I built a tower, now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime?

 

Once in khaki suits, gee we looked swell,

Full of that Yankee Doodly Dum,

Half a million boots went slogging through Hell,

And I was the kid with the drum!

 

Say, don't you remember, they called me Al; it was Al all the time.

Why don't you remember, I'm your pal? Buddy, can you spare a dime?

 

Once in khaki suits, gee we looked swell,

Full of that Yankee Doodly Dum,

Half a million boots went slogging through Hell,

And I was the kid with the drum!

 

Say, don't you remember, they called me Al; it was Al all the time.

Say, don't you remember, I'm your pal? Buddy, can you spare a dime?

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

So you think it's acceptable to shoot down a bill based on its sponsors rather than its merits?

 

[Analogman]

Pro-McCain Group Dumping 28 Million Terror Scare DVDs in Swing States

 

Voter Purging: A Legal Way for Republicans to Swing Elections?

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Some friends of mine might lose their house because they can't refinance their mortgage. Middle-class people are going to suffer for this. The people who caused it will by and large suffer no more than having additional free time on their hands.

 

Multiply your friends situation by millions...

 

What we have in the housing crisis is the perfect storm.

 

For the last 15-20 years, there has been a tremendous growth in wealth from the Far East, South America, Europe. This money (re: investors) sought a suitable place to grow. Combined with the investment money in the US, there was a tremendous pool of funds looking for an investment home.

 

Since the 1960's, the policy of the Federal and State Governments across the county (stated and unstated) was for home owenrship.

 

The tax laws changed drastically in the mid-1980's (thank YOU Bill Bradley) and basically destroyed an entire segment of the real estate investment market (the investor who lived off the margin on depreciation deductions) and led (well...one of the factors anyway) to the mass failure of Savings and Loan industry.

 

Interest rates have been slashed by the FED through the years to keep inflation under control. Slashed interest rates have led to historically low mortgage rates since the mid 1980's. I remember my first mortgage in 1986 was at 8.5% on a 30 year mortgage...a year or so earlier it would have been at 10%. In the heady days of 2005, the 30 year rate was around 5.5%...

 

The housing recovery of the 1990's turned into a full fledged boom with the slashing of interest rated on 30-year mortgages.

 

As the desire for investment money to find a home met the housing market, the growth in value and popularity of mortgage backed securities took on a life of its own. The demand for more of these securities led to pressure on lenders to produce mortgages. At the end, there was no requirement for proof of employment, proof of funds; no money down; sellers paying closing costs. I have heard from lenders that some people took their Section 8 subsidized housing vouchers and used that as proof of funds to purchase a new house. I have seen houses foreclosed on with not a single mortgage payment being made.

 

Adjustable Rate Mortgages...Interest Only Mortgages...Everybody seeking to get in on the deal EVEN IF IT WAS UNAFFORDABLE.

 

The subprime collapse was inevitable. Suprime Mortgages were focused on individuals who COULDN'T QUALIFY FOR A MORTGAGE UNDER NORMAL GUIDLINES (a sign that they probably shouldn't have been able to get a mortgage in the first place). Bad Credit history is usually a good sign that the borrower is a poor risk.

 

There seems to be a real lack of...I don't really know what to call it...Morals? No, that doesn't quite capture it at all. Let me explain where I am coming from. How many stories have we seen in the media (or in our professional or real lives) showing some nice, young people who are walking away from their mortgage? Not because they can't afford the payments or have run into financial problems. But because they feel that they are too upside down in their mortgage and are walking away from their mortgage. Now, I am CERTAIN this is not the norm, but I have seen enough of these scenarios to make me very cynical about human nature.

 

Another point in this debacle is the Money didn't disappear. For every buyer of a property, there is a seller and (usually) a realtor.

 

Predatory lending practices...sure. But that is only a small part of the picture. But the underlying problem is that the entire investment structure was built on a neverending growth market.

 

[bleedorange]

So you think it's acceptable to shoot down a bill based on its sponsors rather than its merits?

 

The two go hand-in-hand in this instance.

 

It was a bad bill. I'm not sure why everyone is upset that a bill that shouldn't have passed didn't wind up passing.

[John Smith]

upset republicans who voted no and who spoke to the press yesterday referred to their own alternate plans that according to them weren't even considered. i wonder what those plans are. they didn't say, and i find it hard to believe that they have main street's interests in mind any more than the other people who were working night and day on this thing. not that i think congress should be in the huge hurry bush and paulson were to basically loot the treasury, which is what their hurry sure looked like.

 

That

[mfwahl]

Pro-McCain Group Dumping 28 Million Terror Scare DVDs in Swing States

 

Voter Purging: A Legal Way for Republicans to Swing Elections?

I got one of those terror dvd's. I haven't seen it yet. I'll post my review when I see it.

[John Smith]

Another point in this debacle is the Money didn't disappear. For every buyer of a property, there is a seller and (usually) a realtor.

 

Actually the money did disappear. As interest went up and credit tightened, the housing market slowed. Bidding for housing slowed and slid backwards. Home owners mortgage payments went up, what was once affordable was now un affordable, they tried to sell and prices were moving downwards because the buyers were fewer and further between. The vanished money was in the value of the homes and in the difference between the foreclosed mortgages and the market value of the re-possessed homes.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Actually the money did disappear. As interest went up and credit tightened, the housing market slowed. Bidding for housing slowed and slid backwards. Home owners mortgage payments went up, what was once affordable was now un affordable, they tried to sell and prices were moving downwards because the buyers were fewer and further between. The vanished money was in the value of the homes and in the difference between the foreclosed mortgages and the market value of the re-possessed homes.

 

I'm not referring to the credit markets here.

 

The money from the initial transactions didn't disappear. The seller got their equity, their inital mortgage (if there was one) was paid off and the realtor received their 3 to 6% commission.

[austrya]

I'm not referring to the credit markets here.

 

The money from the initial transactions didn't disappear. The seller got their equity, their inital mortgage (if there was one) was paid off and the realtor received their 3 to 6% commission.

 

I bought my house 3 years ago for $183K. We put 20% down. If I were to sell my house today, I would be lucky to get what I owe, but in all actuality, it would probably be at least $5K less than that, and I would have to pay any commission out of my pocket.

 

I think my money disappeared.

[Analogman]

I got one of those terror dvd's. I haven't seen it yet. I'll post my review when I see it.

 

I saw someone interviewed on CNN (I think) - and they said that they were voting for McCain as he would be the best person to stop the people in Iraq from coming over here and blowing up more buildings.

[Good Old Neon]

I'm fond of the following solution, from Time:

 

The Administration and Congress have felt compelled to do something about the "financial meltdown," so an inefficient and inequitable "bailout plan" has been rushed through the legislature despite harsh criticism from the right and left. That's unfortunate. Both presidential candidates were stalling by qualifying the plan. Whichever candidate had had the courage to reject outright this proposal would have had the better claim to be President.

 

Do not be fooled. The $700 billion (ultimately $1 trillion or more) bailout is not predominantly for mortgages and homeowners. Instead, the bailout is for mortgage-backed securities. In fact, some versions of these instruments are imaginary derivatives. These claims overlap on the same types of mortgages. Many financial institutions wrote claims over the same mortgages, and these are the majority of claims that have "gone bad."

 

At this point, such claims have no bearing on the mortgage or housing crisis; they have bearing only on the holders of these securities themselves. These are ridiculously risky claims with little value for society. It is as if many financial institutions sold "earthquake insurance" on the same house: when the quake hits, all these claims become close to worthless

[JUDE]

I bought my house 3 years ago for $183K. We put 20% down. If I were to sell my house today, I would be lucky to get what I owe, but in all actuality, it would probably be at least $5K less than that, and I would have to pay any commission out of my pocket.

 

I think my money disappeared.

 

 

You are an aberration in today's housing market. The majority of people didn't put down 5%, much less 20%.

[sweetheart-mine]

I saw someone interviewed on CNN (I think) - and they said that they were voting for McCain as he would be the best person to stop the people in Iraq from coming over here and blowing up more buildings.

 

if only the wrong assumptions in that could be funny. they would call for:

[Good Old Neon]

I saw someone interviewed on CNN (I think) - and they said that they were voting for McCain as he would be the best person to stop the people in Iraq from coming over here and blowing up more buildings.

 

values voters -

[Analogman]

I don't know if these ads are running in all states, but, here where I live they are in heavy rotation:

 

NRA Obama Ads