The New Atheists

[M. (hristine]

Yes. Religion doesn't cause the crazy, it is the conduit for the crazy. Any ideology will do.

Precisely.

[Good Old Neon]

But this is absolutely false. Religion is the MASK that is worn to justify the action. Those planes were flown into the towers because of the United States' participation in the war in Afghanistan and the insertion of western culture into the middle east. To the mujahadin, WE are the aggressors.

 

How many masks can you place upon aggression? I can count at least a couple dozen. Until you see it as part of the nature of the monkey mind that every one of us has, there will be no end to it.

 

Argue the existence of God until you are blue in the face, but stop ascribing the ills of the world to Them, and begin to understand that it is in fact, Us.

 

I agree with you to a point, our disastrous meddling in the region is partly to blame, but to simply dismiss the role religion plays is strikes me as naïve (which, I know you’re not, you know, naïve, but I couldn’t think of a more apt word, so you’ll have to forgive me for that one).

 

However, I tend to agree with Sam Harris when he says:

 

Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Why are there no Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence.

 

Harris also says that moderation is bad theology because the extremists are, in a sense, right: he thinks that, if one reads the texts literally, God wants to put homosexuals to death or destroy infidels. Harris claims that religious moderates appear to be blinded to the reality of what fundamentalists truly believe. Moderates tend to argue that suicide attacks can be attributed to a range of social, political, and economic factors. Harris counters by noting that many suicide bombers come not from poverty but from mainstream Muslim society. He points to the fact that the 9/11 hijackers were "college-educated" and "middle-class" and suffered "no discernible experience of political oppression." Harris thus asserts that religion is a significant cause of terrorism:

 

How many more architects and mechanical engineers must hit the wall at 400 miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not merely a matter of education, poverty, or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is that in the year 2006 a person can have sufficient intellectual and material resources to build a nuclear bomb and still believe that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise. Western secularists, liberals, and moderates have been very slow to understand this. The cause of their confusion is simple: They don't know what it is like to really believe in God.

[M. (hristine]

I agree with you to a point, our disastrous meddling in the region is partly to blame, but to simply dismiss the role religion plays is strikes me as naïve (which, I know you’re not, you know, naïve, but I couldn’t think of a more apt word, so you’ll have to forgive me for that one).

 

However, I tend to agree with Sam Harris when he says:

 

Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Why are there no Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence.

 

 

Again, he's got it backwards. The hard work comes in the practice which allows the Buddhist to see the true nature of things. The Buddhist sees that there is a barbarian in each of us.

[plasticeyeball]

Just a curious bystander here.

 

If it's true that Atheists don't believe in any God or a creator or a reason for our existence, I've always wondered what they think happens to people after death.

 

 

 

i wouldn't call myself a true atheist. I wouldn't call myself anything. I really think you rot away just like every other animal or vegetable on the planet that dies or looses it's source of nutrients. Anything other than that just seems silly to me.

[jakobnicholas]

Do you ever wonder if your desire that the people you describe have heavenly afterlives is simply your way of coping with such tragedy?

 

I don't think anything here is a "happy accident," rather our world has been created as it is and my making sense of anything won't change the shape or course of the world.

 

Why worry about whether this is all there is? Does it matter? A piano could drop on me tomorrow; I could be the victim of a heinous, random, violent act; I could be diagnosed with cancer; either way, I don't think I would do anything differently.

 

Would you? Would you live your life differently if you knew there was no afterlife? If you wouldn't live your life differently, then what difference does it make?

 

 

It's impossible to argue faith. We obviously believe things so differently, that it seems almost foolish to say what I think about your post, 'cause you'll find what I say to be as silly as what I think it is you're saying. But, what the hell...

 

I'm not "coping" by imagining better lives for those with crappy existences. I'm simply hoping and wishing and praying for that to be the case. As a Catholic, I believe praying for those unfortunate and those who don't believe can make a difference in the world.

 

I don't think Believers are trying to make sense of the world. In fact, most Believers will say it's not for them to try and figure out. Believers try to live life as good as they humanly can and follow the Commandments...which will surely include many times that they fail and commit sins....and try not to worry about anything else.

 

How do you know you wouldn't do anything differently if a piano fell on you? If you were paralyzed and psychologically devastated, you may want to end your life. If you believed in God and an afterlife, maybe you'd try to hang in there and make the most of a terrible situation. Maybe you'd say prayers. Maybe hundreds would pray for you. Maybe a friend would turn you on to God. Maybe you'd start believing.

 

If I knew there was no afterlife, then I'd also know there was no God. If I knew there was no God, then YES, my life would be MUCH different. For the worse.

[yermom]

I think of toddlers that die, or kids in horrific murders, or parents of murdered kids, or people paralyzed for life, or people with mental problems, or the billions of kids born into poverty in 3rd world countries....

 

It's sad to me to think that these people have shitty existences, then just die. I imagine these people getting a chance to REALLY live after this life. I imagine it being a heavenly existence, but who knows....maybe they get to lead another life after this one. Obviously, I don't know for sure. This is just what I feel....and what I think many believers feel.

 

We all have our own soul and feelings and emotions. It's amazing and magical to me. I absolutely CANNOT and WILL NOT EVER believe that it's all just some happy accident. It's hard for me to believe that this existence is all there is.

When I am thinking about this stuff (every day) and encounter the "What about toddlers..." issue, I think that when these things happen, it's not completely senseless horror. I get the same feeling I get at funerals (and I've attended my fair share) and that's the feeling that while this loss makes me tremendously sad, it also reminds me of the value of life.

 

When someone dies, it reminds me to be thankful that I'm still alive and it reminds me of how strongly I loved that person and how strongly I love so many people in my life. I've never been so in love with the universe and so awed with the beauty and magic in life as I am when I'm reminded of how lucky I am to be here to witness it and of how quickly it can be taken away from me. I don't worry too much about what happens when I die because I know that, if nothing else, I'll live on in the memories of those who love me and serve to remind them of the value of their own existence...every moment of it, even if it only lasts as long as their heart is beating and no longer.

[Good Old Neon]

When I am thinking about this stuff (every day) and encounter the "What about toddlers..." issue, I think that when these things happen, it's not completely senseless horror. I get the same feeling I get at funerals (and I've attended my fair share) and that's the feeling that while this loss makes me tremendously sad, it also reminds me of the value of life.

 

When someone dies, it reminds me to be thankful that I'm still alive and it reminds me of how strongly I loved that person and how strongly I love so many people in my life. I've never been so in love with the universe and so awed with the beauty and magic in life as I am when I'm reminded of how lucky I am to be here to witness it and of how quickly it can be taken away from me. I don't worry too much about what happens when I die because I know that, if nothing else, I'll live on in the memories of those who love me and serve to remind them of the value of their own existence...every moment of it, even if it only lasts as long as their heart is beating and no longer.

 

Well said llynn.

[bleedorange]

Absolutely hilarious:

 

Boycotting The Gap this Christmas

 

The AV Club writer's response is classic:

 

So, just so we're clear: The Christian organization is boycotting The Gap because The Gap doesn't commercialize the birth of their lord and savior enough in the store's advertisments. Sounds, uh, what? Someone should start revising those bumper stickers to "Keep Christ in Door-Buster Christmas Sales."

[Guest Speed Racer]

In the interest of a good discussion, none of my statements below are at ALL meant to be sarcastic or chiding (in the off-chance that they are read that way):

 

It's impossible to argue faith. We obviously believe things so differently, that it seems almost foolish to say what I think about your post, 'cause you'll find what I say to be as silly as what I think it is you're saying. But, what the hell...

 

I think you're misreading my tone if you think I'm arguing. I answered your questions because it sounded as if you'd like to hear from other people; I'm asking you questions because I would like to hear from you. I'm only interested in sharing; I don't think you can be right or wrong about faith.

 

I'm not "coping" by imagining better lives for those with crappy existences. I'm simply hoping and wishing and praying for that to be the case. As a Catholic, I believe praying for those unfortunate and those who don't believe can make a difference in the world.

 

I'm not arguing at all that believing in an afterlife or wanting better lives is at all a matter of weakness or foolishness on your behalfs or any other person of faith, just to be clear. By "coping," I did not at all mean to imply that you were somehow at a loss; in hoping and wishing for better lives for others, you very much are coping with their plight. It's not a judgement on my part so much as an observation; I cope by saying that's the natural order of things - all creatures, all structures in the universe.

 

How do you know you wouldn't do anything differently if a piano fell on you? If you were paralyzed and psychologically devastated, you may want to end your life. If you believed in God and an afterlife, maybe you'd try to hang in there and make the most of a terrible situation. Maybe you'd say prayers. Maybe hundreds would pray for you. Maybe a friend would turn you on to God. Maybe you'd start believing.

 

I meant before I was crushed by a piano. Clearly, my life would be very different a baby grand crushed my skull. I am living my life exactly as I would like to live it if I were going to die tomorrow. Or become paralyzed tomorrow. Or unable to speak. Or enjoy triple cheeseburgers.

 

To correct you, in your last statement you mean, "Maybe you'd start believing in Catholocism and/or Christianity." A VERY important distinction to make if you are at all willing to have an open conversation about faith. I hope you are. I believe - please don't condescend. I believe I am not the most important thing in this world; I believe in giving myself, my time and my resources to better the lives of others; I believe that understanding the world isn't nearly as important as living honestly, openly and willing to help; I believe that everything is exactly as it is meant to be; I believe that's all I need to believe right now.

 

If I knew there was no afterlife, then I'd also know there was no God. If I knew there was no God, then YES, my life would be MUCH different. For the worse.

 

What if a god existed, but afterlife did not? Why would your life be worse if there were no afterlife or god? Honest question; I don't see how a deity would or would not change your life, and I would love to know.

[jakobnicholas]

What if a god existed, but afterlife did not? Why would your life be worse if there were no afterlife or god? Honest question; I don't see how a deity would or would not change your life, and I would love to know.

 

 

I really don't feel like going into why God's so important in my life. A lot of it is personal. I can't imagine living my life with the thought that God does not exist. I have no idea how to answer that.

 

You and other Atheists can believe whatever you want to believe. It sounds like we both try to be good honest people, and that's the #1 important thing for all people in the world to coexist.

[Guest Speed Racer]

I don't consider myself an atheist, not in the least. Assuming that because I don't believe in a "god" as it may or may not align itself with a religion means I don't believe in something is simplistic.

 

I'm not really asking you the personal implications of your religion (which I respect and, to an extent, admire), I just want to know what about your day-to-day life would change without the knowledge of an afterlife? With the belief in a Christian god, which I identified with a bit growing up, my life was a lot less full than it is now; there's no blame at all associated with that, and I'm not in the least bit resentful toward Christianity. I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that if any possible salvation requires more than the behaviors I described in my previous post, I'm not sure I'm really in the market for that anyway.

[jakobnicholas]

Thinking about possibly spending eternity in a good place with my loved ones helps me keep my chin up in rough times and helps me try to do things right. I've accepted and understand that life ain't always easy and/or fun. It's how we deal with it and get through it that matters.

 

I have a friend who had a tragic accident many years ago...was almost paralyzed. Now he has many physical and psychological things he fights with. BECAUSE of what he went through, he doesn't believe in God. He can't imagine a loving, caring God doing that. I've tried to explain that it's not for us to know all the answers. I wish he didn't feel the way he does, but I understand it.

 

I'm not suggesting that you or others who don't believe in God are screwed. In fact, I've always believed that good, caring people have a really good chance of "living on". The Catholic church teaches to pray for everyone...Believers and non-Believers...so that we all will hopefully live in eternity.

 

That Jesus exists has never been a doubt for me. So it's hard to think and imagine what it'd be like to not believe in God.

[M. (hristine]

I agree with you to a point, our disastrous meddling in the region is partly to blame, but to simply dismiss the role religion plays is strikes me as naïve (which, I know you’re not, you know, naïve, but I couldn’t think of a more apt word, so you’ll have to forgive me for that one).

 

Perhaps my wish to ferret out the subtleties of motivation comes across as naïveté.

I'm thinking that whole 72 virgins thing might be motivated more by testosterone than religion. Perhaps we should advocate for zero tolerance of testicles.

 

How many more architects and mechanical engineers must hit the wall at 400 miles an hour before we admit to ourselves that jihadist violence is not merely a matter of education, poverty, or politics? The truth, astonishingly enough, is that in the year 2006 a person can have sufficient intellectual and material resources to build a nuclear bomb and still believe that he will get 72 virgins in Paradise. Western secularists, liberals, and moderates have been very slow to understand this. The cause of their confusion is simple: They don't know what it is like to really believe in God.

 

Call me crazy, naïve even, but I think judging people for their crimes, rather than for their beliefs, seems a more skillful system.

[Good Old Neon]

From Andrew Sullivan:

 

You can forgive the pro-Catholic side for losing the debate in Britain on whether the Catholic church is a force for good in the world. Ann Widdecombe and Archbishop John Onaiyekan were up against Hitch and Fry. What you cannot forgive is the sheer intellectual shallowness of the defense. Just listen to the small speech above, I mean: really, this is the best we've got?

 

In Onaiyekan, you have a classic Benedict/JP II Archbishop: dumb as a post, sheltered from the actual debate in the West, incapable of argument, and pathetic as a spokesman. The problem with the theoconservative take-over in the Catholic priesthood is not so much its extremism as its mediocrity. And it is mediocre because it has been trained not to think, not to argue, and not to engage the modern world. It has been trained solely for obedience - blind, dumb, unquestioning, intellectually moribund obedience. Hitch's continued riposte is below. It was not a fair fight, and, for some reason, I still want my church to make a case that is actually intellectually and morally defensible. Under Benedict's weak, reactionary leadership, it is losing the battle of ideas in the West more swiftly than any of us could have predicted:

 

The Catholic Church

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvZz_pxZ2lw&feature=player_embedded

 

vs.

[Good Old Neon]

Christopher Hitchens

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFTj9n40rNo&feature=player_embedded

[bobbob1313]

So the battle for our eternal souls is being fought like a high school speech class?

[Tweedling]

Yes. Religion doesn't cause the crazy, it is the conduit for the crazy. Any ideology will do.

I would replace the word "religion" with "college".

[The High Heat]

I would replace the word "religion" with "college".

Gospel, ironically.

[chanman1128]

 

If it's true that Atheists don't believe in any God or a creator or a reason for our existence, I've always wondered what they think happens to people after death.

 

Do they simply not know and/or don't care?

 

First of all, nobody "knows".

 

I am an Atheist, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in a Creator. I don't believe in anything supernatural and do not believe in an afterlife. It is not that I don't care, there is just no reason to worry about it. If serious evidence comes out in favor of an afterlife I will be the first to believe it, however until then it seems kind of ridiculous to believe in me floating up to the sky to be with my grandparents and ancestors when I die.

 

What happens to an ant when it dies? Do you think ants go on to an afterlife or is it just for animals with bigger sized brains?

[yermom]

First of all, nobody "knows".

Exactly. That's something I can't get behind, the idea that anyone "knows." When my daughter asks about god, "Is god real?", I just explain that some people think so, Dad doesn't think so, and Mom really just doesn't know.

[Sweet Papa Crimbo]

Just as valid an arguement

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfRkcJ0BLS0

[Good Old Neon]

 

 

What happens to an ant when it dies? Do you think ants go on to an afterlife or is it just for animals with bigger sized brains?

 

 

 

Turns out the ant god, like our god, is a malicious, 10 year old boy, which, helps explain a few things.

[W(TF)]

So the battle for our eternal souls is being fought like a high school speech class?

 

One perspective is that this battle for souls between Islam and Christianity is now being played out most heavily on the African continent, using charities, NGO's, and other "non-traditional" methods. Interesting article.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/nigeria

[sonicshoulder]

Search "The Old Testament" on Amazon it comes up in fiction, I'm just sayin...Don't kill the messenger, you'll go to hell, unless you say your sorry then your heaven bound.

[SarahC]

I worry about people whose motivation for kindness stems from the hope of making deposits in the stock of their afterlife.

 

The Bible says, "Good works alone are like filthy rags to God"-- to paraphrase it slightly. While, it is good to do things for others, and show true Christian love, ultimately (as I believe it) the most important thing is a true faith in God and Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

I've stayed away from this topic for sometime now, though it has been interesting to read things from an atheist world-view. Though, Donald Miller said once, that there are no actual atheists, merely people who God hasn't spoken to yet, or folks who choose not to listen to what He is saying.

 

I am a liberal Evangelical Christian. Born again a little over a 2-years-ago now. For me, the debate about whether or not God exists in non-existant, because I have seen His work in others lives, and most remarkably my own. It would be easy to write a lot of things off as "fate" or "circumstance", but that's where faith comes in, right?

 

The way I see it, even by an atheist saying, "I believe when we die we turn to dust", promotes a belief in something. Even if that something is a nothing, it's still a belief that it will happen. Some might even say that the little inkling of "nothing" might even be God talking to those individuals.

 

I don't get how people can look at some of the world's wonders and not understand that there is a God. I mean that with all seriousness too... so much beauty in this world, how did it get there? Who thought it up if God didn't? Seems way too complex to be "fate".