Chicago teachers

[Tweedling]

Whats going on? Its all over the news but since I have a direct line to Chicagoans AND a good deal of teachers through this board I would love to see what the word on the street is. I hear the avg salary is somewhere around 74k and that this puts 400k kids out of the classroom? Is this union work at its finest?

Just wondering what you guys think.

[brownie]

I am a teacher, but not in Chicago.

 

What do I think? I think that salary is the least of the problems here. Teachers are now expected to be miracle workers, and to be accountable for things they have no control over. I have been teaching for 10 years. I am hardworking, dedicated, and love my students. But can I be all things to all kids, and still have any semblance of a life? No. I do not expect to be teaching after another year or two. It wouldn't matter if they doubled my salary. I can't make every kid successful, without some sort of accountability on the part of the kids....and there is none.

[kidsmoke]

Your story is all too common among teachers, Brownie. I'm sad for you, and for the students who will miss out on your dedicated teaching. It's time for an entire generation of parents to step up and take responsibility for their children's behavior, and insist that those children are accountable and respectful.

 

Best of luck.

 

Tweedling, to reply to you, I support the Chicago teachers.

[Tweedling]

I want to know if teachers have a choice whether or not to be in the union. Also, what percentage of the teachers are striking against their own will or do not agree with the union?

[LouieB]

My wife is a Chicago Public School teacher and she is a member of the union (you don't have to be a member, but you do have to pay a fee if you are not I believe, that is usually how it works.) The teachers are not striking over pay, although that has not yet been selttled. This is mostly about evaluation and recall for staff laid off from closed schools. There is alot of support for the teachers in Chicago, a town where unions are pretty strong and almost all city employees have a union.

 

This is a tough call, but a strike that will set the tone for many other struggles by teachers across the nation. It is not an easy decision to do this. There is at least one VC member who is a striking CPS teacher on here and maybe she will see this later and chime in.

 

Even if teachers disagree with the strike (there can't be that many at this point) they are not at work because the schools themselves are not open for teaching anyway because there is not enough staff to do this. Some schools are open as baby sitting and serving lunch. In any labor dispute those who choose to cross picket lines are commonly known as scabs, not a pleasant name or a place to be. At this point the solidarity with the union is extremely strong.

 

(Full disclosure, I am a member of an affiliated IFT-AFT local for my job.)

 

LouieB

[Winston Legthigh]

If it's true that there are only two remaining points in contention - 1) using a new teacher evaluation method (the current one ie 40 years old) and 2) whether or not a principal would have the ability to choose a teacher to hire, or whether the principal would have to give priority to whomever was laid off most recently...

 

The union's position is: 1) They don't like the new method, and 2) is all about job security - they favor the latter position.

 

I don't like that they're using over 400,000 Chicago kids as leverage, and the only notion of "job security" I've ever known is: if you do a good job of contributing value, and assuming the company you work for is afloat, they'll keep you. But basically, being an at-will employee my whole life, I roll my eyes at the notion of job security.

[LouieB]

If it's true that there are only two remaining points in contention - 1) using a new teacher evaluation method (the current one ie 40 years old) and 2) whether or not a principal would have the ability to choose a teacher to hire, or whether the principal would have to give priority to whomever was laid off most recently...

 

The union's position is: 1) They don't like the new method, and 2) is all about job security - they favor the latter position.

 

I don't like that they're using over 400,000 Chicago kids as leverage, and the only notion of "job security" I've ever known is: if you do a good job of contributing value, and assuming the company you work for is afloat, they'll keep you. But basically, being an at-will employee my whole life, I roll my eyes at the notion of job security.

Clearly there is a large philosphical divide in this country between those who think everyone is on their own all the time and those who think that gathering in self help communities can benefit more people. It is the same argument that rages in the presidental campaign and it is not going to be solved in this thread either. If you don't believe that people have the right to collective action based on shared needs and beliefs then all unions are evil. There is no way to win an argument with that position.

 

The unions are certainly on the ropes. Is this good? It depends on your basic philosphy I guess. A world where everyone is on their own can be a fairly bleak place in my humble opinion, but then again I have been a union member whenever I could be and have supported unions even when I was not part of the immediate struggle. There is a lack of education on what unions have provided to workers in this country so at this point it appears there is no need for them.

 

LouieB

[Lammycat]

I am a teacher, but not in Chicago.

 

What do I think? I think that salary is the least of the problems here. Teachers are now expected to be miracle workers, and to be accountable for things they have no control over. I have been teaching for 10 years. I am hardworking, dedicated, and love my students. But can I be all things to all kids, and still have any semblance of a life? No. I do not expect to be teaching after another year or two. It wouldn't matter if they doubled my salary. I can't make every kid successful, without some sort of accountability on the part of the kids....and there is none.

....and parents.

 

I've been teaching for 13 yrs in Denver and still enjoy it. I understand needing to hold teachers accountable. I get compensated through an incentive-paid system in Denver,doing what I'm supposed to be doing anyway. However, the fact that students can now make up 1/3 of my "performance" evaluation is a little whacked. Admins and peers? Sure. But my the kids I assign the work to? Hmmmm....

 

And yes, the expectations of what we are expected to accomplish given the clientele with typical inner city problems extends beyond the reach of educators.

[Winston Legthigh]

Clearly there is a large philosphical divide in this country between those who think everyone is on their own all the time and those who think that gathering in self help communities can benefit more people. It is the same argument that rages in the presidental campaign and it is not going to be solved in this thread either. If you don't believe that people have the right to collective action based on shared needs and beliefs then all unions are evil. There is no way to win an argument with that position.

 

The unions are certainly on the ropes. Is this good? It depends on your basic philosphy I guess. A world where everyone is on their own can be a fairly bleak place in my humble opinion, but then again I have been a union member whenever I could be and have supported unions even when I was not part of the immediate struggle. There is a lack of education on what unions have provided to workers in this country so at this point it appears there is no need for them.

 

LouieB

 

I don't think unions are evil. I just disagree with this particular strike. It's a shitshow, and could have been avoided.

[LouieB]

Actually it is NOT a shitshow, but it could have been avoided.

 

What strikes do you agree with? I am sure if an airline goes on strike and keeps you from getting to a destination that would also be a shitshow and avoidable. The Chicago teachers didn't want to strike, but job security is important to them and they felt it was necessary. In fact the legislature made it extra hard for them to go out, with extra timelines, larger majorities, etc, before they walked and the teachers STILL walked. Who's fault is that?

 

edit- Calling a largely female workforce that has been pushed to the brink, who deal with a large numbers of children, many of them with special needs that are not taken care of in a large urban district a shitshow is really kind of tacky. None of these teachers wanted this, but they are standing solid and strong in the face of enormous pressure.

 

LouieB

[Winston Legthigh]

Actually it is NOT a shitshow, but it could have been avoided.

 

What strikes do you agree with?

 

I call having to find a place to go, arranging daycare, or otherwise attending to 400,000 displaced students a shitshow.

 

I don't keep a list of strikes I agree with, but one of them is the 1985 Hormel strike.

[LouieB]

I call having to find a place to go, arranging daycare, or otherwise attending to 400,000 displaced students a shitshow.

 

I don't keep a list of strikes I agree with, but one of them is the 1985 Hormel strike.

Wow that's easy and also they lost. I assume you are refering to the one from the Barbara Koppel documentary. How about the other one that was coal miners.

 

It is easy to support losers like the Hormel strikers who make a product no one really cares about like Spam or coal miners, which no one wants to do (and is in an industry which is disappearing), but it takes some chutzpah to criticize teachers, who put it all on the line to work with children and incure the wrath of everyone and still decide to make the hard decision to go out.

 

LouieB

[calvino]

Why can't they strike during the summer???

 

Seriously, I am for collective bargaining and striking - but I am having a little hard time with this particular strike. Both sides say they are close - if so, why not continue to teach, while the two sides hash it out? 16% raise over 4 years seems reasonable and I agree that methods of evaluation may be a bit skewed against teachers - but, I do agree with the city, that principals should be able to hire the most qualified teachers.

 

Soon, I will have a kid who will be entering school age - I live a block away from the President's Chicago residence - and there is no way I can send my kid to our neighborhood public elementary school. "Statistically", at least, the school is a mess. I don't see how a strike is going to change that or help my neighborhood school - I am not sure what will.

 

I am definitely not blaming the CPS teachers (solely) - parents definitely share some blame with the statistic that 6 out of 10 CPS high school freshman drop out - but from what I seen and heard, it seems teachers blame everyone and everything else for the dismal state of CPS schools (and I don't mean this to be a blanket statement for all CPS teachers).

 

One last point, the city and CPS are kinda broke, spending millions dollars more to compensate the strike, is not very productive, especially if (as both sides say) they are "close" in their negotiations. Why not keep both sides at the table and the kids in school?

 

(I do understand the symbolism of a strike - it's a great one. And I really do appreciate all teachers (with the exception of a 8th grade teacher I had) and good to great teachers should be compensated well.)

 

Typically I am not in the same boat as the Chicago Tribune, but they do make a lot of decent points.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-strike-0911-jm-20120911,0,1868281.story

[Winston Legthigh]

Wow that's easy and also they lost. I assume you are refering to the one from the Barbara Koppel documentary. How about the other one that was coal miners.

 

It is easy to support losers like the Hormel strikers who make a product no one really cares about like Spam or coal miners, which no one wants to do (and is in an industry which is disappearing), but it takes some chutzpah to criticize teachers, who put it all on the line to work with children and incure the wrath of everyone and still decide to make the hard decision to go out.

 

LouieB

 

Tell you what. If it makes you feel better, I'll blindly support every union strike from here on out, regardless of its merits.

[Mr. Heartbreak]

I have been an "at-will" employee for most of my adult life, and I wish to hell I had the option of a union. To think that I could knock myself out, year after year, giving the best efforts of my life to a company, and know that they can kick me to the curb at any moment, even after 20 or 30 years...because it would be cheaper to hire some kid fresh out of college...well, let's just say it's more than a bit unsettling.

 

When it comes to unions vs. bosses, I will blindly support any union strike, in theory at least, until someone gives me a damn good reason not to. I think the majority of workers know what the merits of their concerns are. But that's easy for me, because I believe everyone should have the option of joining a union. Sadly, less than 15% of American workers are unionized today. I read that it's down to about 11%, if I recall correctly, but I'm really not sure.

 

I would like to see unions for bank workers, insurance companies...you name it.

[Jcamp]

I fully support the teachers. Some teachers may be assigned to well-functioning schools. Some to schools where parents aren't participating as much. For the assessment of teacher's quality to be determined by a luck of the draw as to which school they are placed is certainly problematic. Moreover, if recall of layed-off teachers isn't as conducted by senority; then that is problematic as well.

[Jcamp]

I have been an "at-will" employee for most of my adult life, and I wish to hell I had the option of a union. To think that I could knock myself out, year after year, giving the best efforts of my life to a company, and know that they can kick me to the curb at any moment, even after 20 or 30 years...because it would be cheaper to hire some kid fresh out of college...well, let's just say it's more than a bit unsettling.

 

When it comes to unions vs. bosses, I will blindly support any union strike, in theory at least, until someone gives me a damn good reason not to. I think the majority of workers know what the merits of their concerns are. But that's easy for me, because I believe everyone should have the option of joining a union. Sadly, less than 15% of American workers are unionized today. I read that it's down to about 11%, if I recall correctly, but I'm really not sure.

 

I would like to see unions for bank workers, insurance companies...you name it.

well said !! It is time for the 99% to speak up ! I'm at a total loss as to what the Tea baggers are thinking. Union wages transcende/cascade to higher wages for all workers ! if you are the 1%, please show how misundeerstanding you are to the majorities plight.

[LouieB]

Tell you what. If it makes you feel better, I'll blindly support every union strike from here on out, regardless of its merits.

Your sincerity is overwhelming. Just because you can't support your opinion don't be pissed at me.

 

Why can't they strike during the summer???

 

Seriously, I am for collective bargaining and striking - but I am having a little hard time with this particular strike. Both sides say they are close - if so, why not continue to teach, while the two sides hash it out? 16% raise over 4 years seems reasonable and I agree that methods of evaluation may be a bit skewed against teachers - but, I do agree with the city, that principals should be able to hire the most qualified teachers.

 

Soon, I will have a kid who will be entering school age - I live a block away from the President's Chicago residence - and there is no way I can send my kid to our neighborhood public elementary school. "Statistically", at least, the school is a mess. I don't see how a strike is going to change that or help my neighborhood school - I am not sure what will.

 

I am definitely not blaming the CPS teachers (solely) - parents definitely share some blame with the statistic that 6 out of 10 CPS high school freshman drop out - but from what I seen and heard, it seems teachers blame everyone and everything else for the dismal state of CPS schools (and I don't mean this to be a blanket statement for all CPS teachers).

 

One last point, the city and CPS are kinda broke, spending millions dollars more to compensate the strike, is not very productive, especially if (as both sides say) they are "close" in their negotiations. Why not keep both sides at the table and the kids in school?

 

(I do understand the symbolism of a strike - it's a great one. And I really do appreciate all teachers (with the exception of a 8th grade teacher I had) and good to great teachers should be compensated well.)

 

Typically I am not in the same boat as the Chicago Tribune, but they do make a lot of decent points.

http://www.chicagotr...0,1868281.story

Now we have something to talk about. There are certainly two sides to this story and you have pointed out some reasonable sides.

 

You aren't the only one I know who is having a problem with this strike. I had dinner with a friend a couple nights ago who also was having a problem with it.

 

The broke-ness of the city has been taken into consideration and it appears that salary is not a major issue here, although I wouldn't be completely truthful if it wasn't part of it. The teachers did forgo a contractual raise last year and they have had their hours increased this year, so some compensation has to be in issue.

 

Why not strike in the summer? Actually some previous teacher strikes (like the one I was on nearly 40 years ago) were in mid-winter. With the new timelines and the new E track schools, this strike is as close to summer as it gets. Besides, most teachers don't actually work in summer so at least this strike could (and sort of did) start at the beginning of the school year.

 

The technical aspects of teacher evaluation, seniority rights, etc. are highly technical and bound to lose something when discussed outside of the impact they have on teacher job security and morale. I suppose there is plenty of gray area here.

 

Strikes that impact services to people (as opposed to cuts of meat or coal in the ground) are fraught with all sorts of emotional baggage. It is a HUGE inconvenience for teachers to strike because of obvious inconvenience to parents and the need for childcare (which is a large role that schools play, aside from the actual teaching.) There is no way to justify it I suppose. (hence it being called a shitshow when really this is a very well organized and long anticipated event.) As the days go on, the public will begin to turn against the teachers for all the reasons you have mentioned. You can do without spam, but you really can't do without schools. So that the decision which was not easily arrived at will slowing begin to look less attractive as time goes on. Many people will point out the relatively good salaries that CPS staff makes, but as the spouse of a teacher I can assure you that the school day doesn't end the work day. These jobs are endless and the stress is enormous. And of course there are kids involved.

 

In the end, hopefully this thing will end soon. No one will be happy, but at least maybe the teachers can retain some job security and morale. It is going to be hard though. Oh and one more thing. Nearly every strike takes place when the sides are close to an agreement. Just not close enough to close it out.

 

LouieB

[Tweedling]

Is the stat 6 out of 10 high school freshmen in CPS drop out?! If so, that is embarrassing! Wow. That needs to be addressed.

[Jcamp]

striking in the summer would be to as taking away wilma rudolph's leg braces for being able to run ?

[LouieB]

Is the stat 6 out of 10 high school freshmen in CPS drop out?! If so, that is embarrassing! Wow. That needs to be addressed.

Actually it is. The union is asking for more "wrap around" services for students. The number of social workers per student is unbelievably high, usually 1000 to 1 or more. But as was pointed out, Chicago is broke, so what's to be done?

 

You can't expect teachers to deal with every issue that childrem face coming out of inner-city schools. This is a nationwide problem, not just Chicago.

 

LouieB

[Magnetized]

Here's what Spencer Tweedy had to say about it: http://spencertweedy.com/

 

My teachers are on strike

My teachers are on strike, and that’s sad.

 

It’s sad for teachers, because they want to teach. They like teaching; that’s why they became a teacher. They’re not striking because they just can’t stand being a facilitator of growth in kids. They’re on strike because that’s what they love to do, and they want to do it in a system that is less broken.

 

It’s sad for teachers, because many of them can hardly get by on what they’re unfairly paid now, and missing one week’s (or two weeks’, or three’s) check altogether will have serious financial consequences. It’s sad that they have to take one for the team—for their fellow teachers, and for the students—in a way that could cause lasting hurt.

 

It’s sad for students, because we want to learn. We love our teachers and we want them to be treated the way that they deserve to be treated, and we want our schools to be given the resources they need. We want to go to school.

 

I stand with the Chicago Teachers Union, because I believe in unions, and I believe in the greater part of what they’re fighting for. They’re not just picketing for fair pay; they’re picketing because most of this city’s schools really, really suck, both as facilities and as organizations. There are too many schools without adequate heating and cooling, too many schools without a library and too many schools without playgrounds. Beyond that, schools just do not have the resources that they need to be effective learning places. (My school has so little taxpayer funding, many of our materials are either purchased by our teachers, out of selflessness, or by funds raised at annual walkathons and similar events.) As institutions, there’s also a lot of wrong in the way they function, and I believe that Chicago Public Schools and the Chicago Teachers Union are both responsible for that facet of the issue.

 

It’s all about a line that needs to be drawn, and where, and how, to draw it. In order for our schools to be the best they can be, people need to lose their jobs. Which people?

 

Unions exist to protect the working people, and that’s crazy awesome. It’s such a gift to live in a country where unions can exist! But the problem with the Chicago Teachers Union is that it protects its working people unconditionally; there’s no internal board of review that makes the benefits of union membership a privilege and not a right. I think that to hold a union card, you should also have to uphold your commitment to students, and that means being a competent, dedicated teacher. Organized labor rules, but it’s a lot of power in the hands of the people. It’s a responsibility to those whom you serve. I think that if you’re going to empower yourselves, you should also police yourselves. Job security should exist, but you should have to earn it.

 

The sad thing about that is that there are some teachers who can’t earn it, because they’re just not very good at teaching. And their only option is teaching. And they’ve been doing it for many years already. This situation is unfair for them, and it’s unfair for students; they deserve their job, because they got hired, and now they have nowhere else to go, but students deserve better. I kind of believe that we should just wait till they all retire. There are plenty of other problems to fix in the meantime. There are other things necessary to institutional learning, and maybe by the time our schools finally have them, the job tree will have been pruned and the system will reap the benefits of a new generation of 21st-century-trained, curiosity-encouraging, innovation-geared, engaging and engaged liaisons of information.

 

CPS doesn’t understand learningNeither side is the devil in this fight. Rahm Emanuel, Jean-Claude Brizard, Karen Lewis, the rest of CPS and the rest of the CTU have their general hearts and minds in the right place. When they sit in those conference rooms, and talk about how to solve the problems that Chicago’s public schools face, it’s not a matter of stinginess or avarice. It’s all about the students—for everyone.

 

But with the questions of fairness and resource aside, the question of this issue that I feel most bent over is the question of measuring intelligence. CPS wants the ability to fire teachers based on their performance, and the only way they know how to measure a teacher’s performance is by measuring his school’s students’ performance, and the only way they know how to do that is by giving us fill-in-the-bubble tests. That is so, so horrifically misguided. There’s a lot more power in the human mind than what can be filled in those bubbles.

 

The Chicago Teachers Union recognizes that. They recognize that proficiency tests are an examination of only a child’s partial intelligence, that they have little to no correlation with the performance of her educators, and that they offer virtually zero insight into her potential for contributing to our communities. They cannot measure growth beyond a short-sighted definition of what growth is. Learning is more than knowing things. Learning is being enriched as a person, and becoming a better thinker. Tests can only see the detritus of that kind of wholesome development—the kind of development that every school and every teacher should be providing. They’re not a way to take the pulse of this school system, and they do not help make our schools better. That is why I stand with the Chicago Teachers Union.

 

 

 

 

[Jcamp]

• git some
  

[LouieB]

Nice.

 

 

LouieB

[Jcamp]

yes , it's true. plenty of needs for improvements in education. Chicago and Cook county are certainly garnering tax revenue. For residents and visitors alike.

Casino revenue is a ridiculaslly overlooked source of solution.

While $Mills are pouring over into Indiana, we have deficiets.

While,Illinois doesn't have an anti-gambling stance; Illinios policy allows $$$$$$$$&$$ of revenue to pour irresponsibly into Indiana.

Perhaps, Gov. Quinn will see the light of day...