Politics 2015

[KevinG]

I have a good friend who was born in Iran and lives in Tehran.  She says that most Iranians are disgusted by the hard-liners in the government and are generally hospitable to Western ideals.  Last year she said something interesting to me--she said that it's interesting how most Iranian citizens don't believe their government's propaganda about America, while so many Americans accept the propaganda they hear about Iran.  I don't mean to minimize the threat from hard-liners in Iran, but I think it is wise to always clarify the distinction between the Iranian government and the Iranian people.

 

 

I really wish people would stop with the "we've been in Getmany and Japan for CX years after WEII" as a way of arguing that we should have stayed longer in Iraq.the length of time spent in those two countries is completely different than Iraq. And the two situations are not comparable.

 

Both of these comments require thought and looking at the situation from a nuanced point of view.  Which is something that the anti Iran deal, pro military solution crowd does not seem to have.   

[Hixter]

I really wish people would stop with the "we've been in Getmany and Japan for CX years after WEII" as a way of arguing that we should have stayed longer in Iraq.the length of time spent in those two countries is completely different than Iraq. And the two situations are not comparable.

Yes, the two situations most certainly are comparable. Nothing good would have come from leaving Japan and Germany immediately after the cessation of hostilities and nothing good has come from leaving Iraq prematurely. You can't decimate a country militarily and remove its totalitarian government and then just walk away, or very bad things will ensue as the power vacuum is filled. It takes decades of military and political cooperation to negotiate a happy ending.

 

The fact that swathes of Iraq are controlled by ISIS and that we have had to send in thousands of troops is a clear indicator that we pulled out of Iraq prematurely.

[KevinG]

The fact that swathes of Iraq are controlled by ISIS and that we have had to send in thousands of troops is a clear indicator that we pulled out of Iraq prematurely.

 

Or that the fact that we should not have been there in the first place.  

[Hixter]

Or that the fact that we should not have been there in the first place.  

You can't undo what has already been done, although I imagine that the administration would like to have a second chance at making the decision to pull out.

[The Inside of Outside]

Yes, the two situations most certainly are comparable. Nothing good would have come from leaving Japan and Germany immediately after the cessation of hostilities and nothing good has come from leaving Iraq prematurely. You can't decimate a country militarily and remove its totalitarian government and then just walk away, or very bad things will ensue as the power vacuum is filled. It takes decades of military and political cooperation to negotiate a happy ending.

 

The fact that swathes of Iraq are controlled by ISIS and that we have had to send in thousands of troops is a clear indicator that we pulled out of Iraq prematurely.

And to think we really accomplished the mission by May 1, 2003:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzrJwzYBUkU

[KevinG]

You can't undo what has already been done, although I imagine that the administration would like to have a second chance at making the decision to pull out.

 

No, you can't.  But it would be nice if there was some acknowledgement that it was a huge mistake in the first place.  The war has cost millions of lives, trillions of dollars, and damaged the region for decades.  

 

Also you make it sound like it the current's administration's plan to basically cut and run from Iraq.  The agreement to remove troops from Iraq was signed by the Bush administration.   Which is conveniently missing from your argument. But I guess it is ok to unilaterally continue to occupy a country, which we invaded and did not attack us.   Signed agreements between countries don't mater to our foreign policy, right?  It is all what we want to do.  Agree to a troop withdrawal, nah.  Let's stay there forever.  Agree to a nuclear arms agreement, nah let's rip that up as soon as we can.  We are America!  We do what the fuck we want when the fuck we want to do.  

[Hixter]

And to think we really accomplished the mission by May 1, 2003:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzrJwzYBUkU

At that point the invasion was 6 weeks old, the Iraqi military had been vanquished and the insurgency had not yet begun. With American deaths from hostile fire numbering only 130, there was reason to be optimistic. Mishandling of the occupation and the tremendous looting immediately after the fall of the government handed the insurgency everything that it needed: money and explosives.

The war has cost millions of lives

No it hasn't.

[LouieB]

NO one remembers that that Bush administration agreed to leave.  The Bush administration started a war with the intention of cutting and running from the get go.  Why Obama gets stuck with this is beyond me. 

 

LouieB

[Hixter]

But I guess it is ok to unilaterally continue to occupy a country, which we invaded and did not attack us.

Yes, they did.

[Hixter]

Why Obama gets stuck with this is beyond me. 

Because the last 3 years of the war took place under his watch. His administration took credit for ending the war, so they also deserve any criticism that comes as a result of pulling out too early.

 

He now also "owns" the war in Afghanistan, too. Along with Syria, Libya, etc.

[Hixter]

The status of forces agreement that Bush negotiated with Iraq was ratified the month before he left office. Long before that, candidate John McCain was calling for calling for a continuing troop presence in Iraq. His remarks were prescient:

 

"It's not a matter of how long we're in Iraq, it's if we succeed or not," McCain said to CNN's Larry King.

"And both Sen. Obama and Clinton want to set a date for withdrawal -- that means chaos, that means genocide, that means undoing all the success we've achieved and al Qaeda tells the world they defeated the United States of America.

"I won't let that happen."

Predictably, fellow candidates Obama and Clinton were against the idea. Hillary even went so far as to promise this:

 

"Well, I want them home within 60 days of my becoming president of the United States."

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/14/mccain.king/

[KevinG]

The status of forces agreement that Bush negotiated with Iraq was ratified the month before he left office. 

 

So I guess that means he didn't really sign it (or mean it?), because like high school the last month of your senior year is pretty much bullshit.  

 

You act as though every time we get a new president the slate is wiped clean.  Come on now, 

 

Now, I am not saying Obama gets a clean slate on this one, but neither does the previous administration.  They got us into this, they signed the agreement to get us out. 

 

And really when did Iraq attack us?  

[Hixter]

And really when did Iraq attack us?  

The Iraqi military fired at coalition aircraft hundreds of times as they were patrolling the no-fly zones in Iraq. It happened almost daily for 10 years, but didn't get much mention in the press.

[John Smith]

Jumped the shark

[Doug C]

Jumped the shark, indeed.

[LouieB]

A long time ago.

 

LouieB

[lost highway]

Remember when we left Vietnam prematurely?

[LouieB]

Actually yes I do remember.  I was 25 when Saigon fell.  But when it fell we were already gone for 2 years. I guess had we never left Saigon would still be under our control.  We should just post troops everywhere and then we would never have to regret leaving.

 

LouieB

[Mr. Heartbreak]

http://news.yahoo.com/trump-still-tops-republican-field-poll-135911571.html

[KevinG]

http://news.yahoo.com/trump-still-tops-republican-field-poll-135911571.html

 

Jesus.  But of course his popularity says nothing about the current state of GOP.  

[Atticus]

"a whopping 43 percent of respondents said they had never heard of Fiorina."

[KevinG]

"a whopping 43 percent of respondents said they had never heard of Fiorina."

 

and the other 57% probably were laid off by her.  

[Mr. Heartbreak]

and the other 57% probably were laid off by her.

[tinnitus photography]

and the other 57% probably were laid off by her.  

A+ work.

[tinnitus photography]

Roger Ailes' wet dream - managing the message