Hot Stove League '07-'08

[cryptique]

Not surprised to see Glenallen Hill's name mentioned. Exhibit A

 

_{I hope that link works ... can't see YouTube at work, but I know that particular video well.}

Damn, the video no longer exists on YouTube.

 

It was Glenallen Hill hitting a home run onto the roof of a building across the street from Wrigley Field. Mind-blowing ... and probably also chemically assisted.

 

edit: found it elsewhere. It wasn't the shoes.

[Mr. Kinsley]

little late to discussion but as a diehard Brewers fan, I'm not excited about the Gagne acquring. $10 million is probably 5-6 more than i would pay for him for a recently injured and lack of production past. Although not sure if you could get Gagne for 1 year $5 million.

 

i will give Brewers GM Doug Melvin credit though. Within the last week, he has rearranged our bullpen acquiring 4 relievers.

 

 

As a Dodgers fan, I have to tell you that a healthy, dominant Gagne is a sight to behold. He was pretty much the only thing holding us traffic-obsessed Angelenos in our seats after the 7th inning. Having him come out of the bullpen in the ninth with Welcome to the Jungle blasting away and "Game Over" flashing on the scoreboard... nothing quite like it.

 

Ironic little discussion from yesterday.

 

I really can't explain to you how upsetting the LoDuca/Gagne situation is to me. These were two guys that I always held in such high regard as the type of players that worked hard, overcame odds and hardships, played the game right, played the game hard, and worst of all, the type of guys you could hold up to the Giant's fans and say, "See. We have the good guys. You have Barry Bonds. HE cheats." Man do I feel like an idiot now. Game over indeed.

[bobbob1313]

Ironic little discussion from yesterday.

 

I really can't explain to you how upsetting the LoDuca/Gagne situation is to me. These were two guys that I always held in such high regard as the type of players that worked hard, overcame odds and hardships, played the game right, played the game hard, and worst of all, the type of guys you could hold up to the Giant's fans and say, "See. We have the good guys. You have Barry Bonds. HE cheats." Man do I feel like an idiot now. Game over indeed.

 

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not at all surprised Gagne used.

[Mr. Kinsley]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Those 2 really threw me for a loop - didn't see it coming at all. I suppose the signs were there but I chose not to see them. At least I can take solace in the fact that the signs weren't that obvious. I mean, it's not like either had their feet grow two and a half sizes* and I still sat there and said, "Oh no. That's nothing."

 

 

 

*Yeah Barry, I'm talking about you.

[PigSooie]

I'm not going to lie. This report confused the hell out of me.

[bobbob1313]

I'm not going to lie. This report confused the hell out of me.

 

Synopsis: Everyone you love is a cheater.

[PigSooie]

Synopsis: Everyone you love is a cheater.

 

I know, but I am still anxiously awaiting opening day just like I was yesterday..

[Reni]

Clemens is no different than Bonds

By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports

December 13, 2007

 

 

Year after year he peddled the same garbage, Roger Clemens was so dominant for so long because he simply outworked everyone. It played to the nation's Puritan roots, made Clemens out to be this everyman maximizing his skills through singular focus, dedication and a commitment to drinking carrot juice, or something.

 

It's all gone now, the legend of Rocket Roger dead on arrival of the Mitchell Report; one of the greatest pitchers of all time, his seven Cy Youngs and 354 career victories lost to history under a pile of lies and syringes.

 

Clemens was injected with performance-enhancing drugs and human growth hormones by his former trainer starting in 2000 and continuing many times through the years, trainer Brian McNamee told George Mitchell in great detail.

 

Baseball has its white Barry Bonds.

 

The sport has been waiting for the other shoe to drop on the 45-year-old Clemens for years. What he did defied not just age, but belief, and if there is one thing we know about commissioner Bud Selig's sorry era, it's that if something seems too good to be true, it is.

 

The smoking gun comes from McNamee, a former New York Yankees employee who used to work as a personal trainer for Clemens and his buddy Andy Pettitte, who is also cited in the report. McNamee is also a witness in a federal investigation and spoke to Mitchell and federal investigators under the penalty of perjury. The details are in Mitchell's 400-plus page, 20-month, $20 million report released Thursday afternoon.

 

Clemens refused to meet with Mitchell, according to the report. "In order to provide Clemens with information about these allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined," Mitchell wrote.

 

If McNamee is wrong and Mitchell ran with it anyway, then Clemens can sue the former Congressional leader, Major League Baseball and his drug-dealing former trainer for about a billion dollars.

 

This report, painstakingly investigated and detailed, may be a witch hunt to cleanse Selig's soul, but it isn't operated by fools. It’s extremely unlikely Mitchell and MLB would set itself up for such risk.

 

No matter what the defense that emerges, Clemens will struggle to ever win in the court of public opinion.

 

Which leaves baseball fans with the gut-punch reality that the generations' greatest hitter – Bonds – and greatest pitcher – Clemens – are nothing but drug-enhanced cautionary tales.

 

It is Clemens and his arrogance through the years that makes this one so distasteful. Just like Bonds, he relished in his greatness, seemed to mock all the other mortals who couldn't keep up with his workout regimens, his off-season drive, his freak of nature physical abilities.

 

He liked to convey that maybe anyone could do this, if they just were as tough as the Texas Con Man.

 

And just like Bonds, you have to wonder why it was ever necessary. Clemens was an all-time great back in the 1980s and early 1990s, when he was presumably clean. He had three Cy Youngs and a MVP by 1991, when he was just 28. He didn't need to cheat to become rich and famous.

 

Maybe it was ego, maybe jealousy, maybe insecurity. It hardly matters now that his deal with the devil just came painfully due.

 

There is a forgivable element to some of the other names. Baseball is a global game now, which is why there are too many factors involved – a chance to leave third-world poverty for cash-flush America – to ever end the lure of doping.

 

Clemens has no such excuse.

 

The only surprise here for anyone paying attention was that Mitchell actually caught him.

 

For years Bonds supporters have pointed the finger at Clemens as a sign of a media (and racial) double standard. Their guy was getting crucified daily, while Clemens was getting standing ovations and new contracts.

 

But until now there was never a credible link to performance-enhancing drugs. There were rumors, broad-based speculation and a tenuous mention in the Jason Grimsley affidavit. But Bonds was caught up in a federal investigation into BALCO, a prison term for Victor Conte and a mountain of other evidence.

 

Call it Clemens' good fortune, but there was only so much you could say. Not any longer.

 

Anyone who spent years spewing contempt at Bonds needs to do the same to Clemens, because there is no difference between them.

 

They are just two guys who had it all, foolishly went for more, and have now lost everything.

 

Welcome to America's pastime. Pass the peanuts and Cracker Jack.

 

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send Dan a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[Spawn's dad]

The presumption made by some that there is some magic date that suddenly signaled in the steroid era is assinine. Clemens could have easily been on these things for far longer than is being said. They've been rampant in athletics since the early 80s.

 

Not only is Clemens not different than Bonds, nor is any person on that list, despite their relative inability to achieve the same lofty goals. Bonds is still going to jail for being a dumbass though.

 

Now they need a real testing system with real penalities and the 'steroid era' can be over.

[MattZ]

The presumption made by some that there is some magic date that suddenly signaled in the steroid era is assinine. Clemens could have easily been on these things for far longer than is being said. They've been rampant in athletics since the early 80s.

 

Couldn't agree with you more. The report is the result of interviews with two main witnesses. The only information that this report discloses is when Radomski/McNamee started supplying/injecting these players. I have no clue why people are screaming on talk radio this morning that Clemens' incredible 1997 wasn't the result of (in part) steroid use because the report says he started taking in 1998. Unbelievable. We have no idea if/when he started.

 

On a side note, I heard a great point on WFAN this morning about Clemens. The report says he was taking steroids at the end of 2000 to prep for the playoffs. In the 2000 playoffs , in back to back starts against SEA and NYM:

 

vs SEA - 9 IP 1 H 0 ER 15K

vs NYM - 8 IP 2 H 0 ER 12K

 

For a total of 17 innnings pitched, 3 hits, no earned runs and 27 freaking strikeouts. Quite possibly the most dominating back to back pitching performance in playoff history. That second game, in the WS, against the Mets??? Remember this?

 

[darkstar]

They had a funny little blurb on Good Morning America about Clemens this morning. As they were going to break they showed video of three kids around 12-13 or so leafing through what appears to be a copy of the Mitchell report. This one kid scans a page and says "Huh, Roger Clemens is in this. I thought he was all about the work ethic." It cracked me up, but at the same time it's kinda sad....This generations version of "Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so."

[ZenLunatic]

Damn, the video no longer exists on YouTube.

 

It was Glenallen Hill hitting a home run onto the roof of a building across the street from Wrigley Field. Mind-blowing ... and probably also chemically assisted.

 

edit: found it elsewhere. It wasn't the shoes.

 

I was at that game.

[ZenLunatic]

ZENLunatic Report - more steriod users to add

 

Sammy Sosa

Mark McGwire

Frank Thomas

Curt Schilling

Randy Johnson

Ryan Howard

Milton Bradley

David Ortiz

 

You can feel free to add more....

[darkstar]

ZENLunatic Report - more steriod users to add

 

Sammy Sosa

Mark McGwire

Frank Thomas

Curt Schilling

Randy Johnson

Ryan Howard

Milton Bradley

David Ortiz

 

You can feel free to add more....

 

Must we have such Yellow Journalism Sir???????

 

ZenLunatic report....dunno why but that is funny as shit

[cryptique]

Frank Thomas

I'm giving Thomas the benefit of the doubt. He was outspoken against performance-enhancing drugs from early on and has advocated testing since at least 1995, and while that's proof of nothing (hello Palmeiro), he's one of those guys who worked hard enough to have that physique naturally. I mean, the guy played football at Auburn -- he was well-acquainted with the weight room long before he hit the major leagues.

 

It's easy to just assume that a guy built like Thomas was on the juice, and I may yet be proven wrong about him, but I'll continue to believe he was drug-free until I see hard evidence to the contrary.

[ZenLunatic]

Yeah some names I just put on the list for the hell of it. Sosa and McGwire is a definite for me though. Really the Mitchell report doesnt mean that much to me. There is so much more out there and steriods is so widespread, if anything the Mitchell report should tell us that fact.

[rareair]

If it makes you feel any better, I'm not at all surprised Gagne used.

 

behind bonds, sosa, and big mac, i thought gagne was the most obvious candidate.

 

the stretch with the dodgers was god-like, and his fastball had become 5-7 mph faster.

[Sir Stewart]

For a total of 17 innnings pitched, 3 hits, no earned runs and 27 freaking strikeouts. Quite possibly the most dominating back to back pitching performance in playoff history. That second game, in the WS, against the Mets??? Remember this?

 

 

Yeah, but he thought that was the ball.

[bjorn_skurj]

Synopsis: Everyone you love is a cheater.

I didn't love anyone named in the Mitchell report. I liked Lo Duca and Todd Hundley, but that's about it. Clemens has always been a tool.

[bjorn_skurj]

Yeah, but he thought that was the ball.

I still wish Piazza would have gotten into with Clemens.

[quarter23cd]

I didn't love anyone named in the Mitchell report. I liked Lo Duca and Todd Hundley, but that's about it. Clemens has always been a tool.

Yeah, I'm pretty indifferent about most of the guys named. Definitely disappointed to see some of those names on the list, but there's nothing here that turns my world upside-down and shatters all my illusions about the game (not that I have many, I guess).

[darkstar]

I agree with the Clemens comment. I'm a huge Sox fan, grew up in Mass. Loving them and still do, and I never really liked that guy. Just speculation but anyone think that maybe in the past couple of years he hasn't started until later in the season to go through a cycle of use (steroids) then come off....after which they may not be detected? I don't know exactly how those things go but I have heard users use them in cycles

[Chris_H_2]

But Clemens' attorney's comment about not being able to refute the allegations is misleading. Clemens had an opportunity to meet with Mitchell but refused, instead preferring solidarity with the Union. Whether he could have said anything to change the report is unclear. But nevertheless, he still could have addressed the accusations.

[Spawn's dad]

Very few players listed would meet with Mitchel. The way it's been explained is that they would call you, but not give you any heads up on what they had or why they wanted to talk to you in advance. Under those circumstances one can't really blame anyone for telling the guy to go scratch.

[Chris_H_2]

Very few players listed would meet with Mitchel. The way it's been explained is that they would call you, but not give you any heads up on what they had or why they wanted to talk to you in advance. Under those circumstances one can't really blame anyone for telling the guy to go scratch.

 

It's my understanding that players received explicit instructions from the Union not to meet and discuss anything with Mitchell. That's why they had such a problem with Giambi doing it, and why it took so long to work out the ground rules for his meeting.