It never ceases to amaze me...

[Party @ the Moontower]

I get your point, and I'm not going to defend our involvement in Vietnam, a conflict in which we were undoubtedly the aggressor, but at the same time, I can accept that many members of the Vietnamese military and civilians acted viciously towards POW's

[mfwahl]

From what I've read, McCain was never offered admiral. He decided to leave the Navy before he would even have been up for a promotion and that the reason he left was because he didn't think he would ever get it. I know there was a New York Times story earlier this year that said different, but I believe it's been discredited. Even McCain writes in his memoir Worth the Fighting Forthat when he wasn't sure he would get a star:

 

"Several months before my father died, I informed him that I was leaving the navy. I am sure he had already gotten word of my decision from friends in the Pentagon. I had been summoned to see the CNO, Admiral Heyward, who told me that I was making a mistake.... His attempt to dissuade me encouraged me to believe that I might have made admiral had I had been in the navy, a prospect that remained an open question in my mind.... Some of my navy friends believed I could still earn my star; others doubted it.... When I told my father of my intention, he did not remonstrate with me.... But I knew him well enough to know that he was disappointed. For when I left him that day, alone in his study, I took with me his hope that I might someday become the first son and grandson of four-star admirals to achieve the same distinction. That aspiration was well beyond my reach by the time I made my decision...."

 

I've also read that earlier promotions he received did not follow the standard procedure because of his grandfather and father's importance to the Navy so maybe he would have received it sooner than he expected.

[caliber66]

 

McCain wasn't even there to vote on his own stupid gas tax holiday bill as well as a zillion other things even when not doing the I wanna get elected dance. He wasn't given the King of No Shows title just yesterday. He's been around a loooong time with no shows.

 

He missed 9% of votes in the previous Congress and 1.8% in the one before that.

[MrRain422]

Really? Your positive he is being honest about what happened to him as a POW? Why would a former POW Fight public access to POW/MIA Files when the families of the men wanted it so desperately? What does he have to gain from this I wonder. I can't figure this one out.

 

You're talking about two different things though. I agree that his record in the Senate has not been one of supporting the troops. Considering his military service it is surprising, but that does not necessarily mean that he's been dishonest about his service. His Senate record on military issues is absolutely fair game though, and that record can be discredited without pointlessly attacking his military record.

 

I don't know either way as I wasn't there, but I can't find a single source that can confirm his heroic torture stories.They do however, say he accepted tea, coffee, and cigs as a POW from the enemy. A big no no.

 

Eh, I don't know if there are rules against accepting those things or not, but even if there is, it all seems very much off the point. I've never been a POW, but I imagine it's probably pretty difficult to stay level headed in such a situation, and if the extent of his moral failings in that situation were to accept coffee, tea and cigarettes then it really doesn't seem like a big thing. The bigger issue, again, is his record in the Senate and the positions that he's taken during this campaign.

[Guest Jules]

I'm sensing nervousness in the ranks!

[Party @ the Moontower]

Eh, I don't know if there are rules against accepting those things or not, but even if there is, it all seems very much off the point. I've never been a POW, but I imagine it's probably pretty difficult to stay level headed in such a situation, and if the extent of his moral failings in that situation were to accept coffee, tea and cigarettes then it really doesn't seem like a big thing. The bigger issue, again, is his record in the Senate and the positions that he's taken during this campaign.

 

McCain said he violated the Code of Conduct for POWs by accepting special favors from the enemy like tea, coffee, & ciggs during interviews with foreign dignitaries in posh settings. His exact words. You have to say big things to get these small rewards. He is (was) a tough dude, but I just don't consider him a war hero. I do respect he fought for his country unlike those that used their family connections to avoid war. Being a POW does not make you a war hero, and it should never be used for selfish pursuits. A real POW would die before selling his country out. That is why they practice the Code of Conduct in fun pretend settings, in case they are taken. Accepting ciggs shows a weakness thay can use against you to get info, which may have been the case.He also received medical help while other POW's did not.

 

He's tough to have made it out alive, but that's it.I'm not convinced he is telling the truth. I also find it weird how he votes against vet issues and the war.Voting to torture when you say you were tortured? And, if his story is true, his head must be a real messed up playground I don't want to play in.

 

I'm sensing nervousness in the ranks!

 

 

I've been waiting for you to come and tell us this thread is not about McCain. Your slacking Jules.

[Winston Legthigh]

A real POW would die before selling his country out.

 

Wow.

 

I would posit that only an actual POW could make that judgment call.

[John Smith]

You know this thread is a perfect example of how we end up electing unqualified shitheads (I'm looking at you George Bush). We as the electorate let the media and the various campaigns lead us down pathways that have little real relevance. We bite the lies hook line and sinker if the lies say what we want to hear. We buy the stories and tales about what is and isn

[Central Scrutinizer]

McCain said he violated the Code of Conduct for POWs by accepting special favors from the enemy like tea, coffee, & ciggs during interviews with foreign dignitaries in posh settings. His exact words. You have to say big things to get these small rewards. He is (was) a tough dude, but I just don't consider him a war hero. I do respect he fought for his country unlike those that used their family connections to avoid war. Being a POW does not make you a war hero, and it should never be used for selfish pursuits. A real POW would die before selling his country out. That is why they practice the Code of Conduct in fun pretend settings, in case they are taken. Accepting ciggs shows a weakness thay can use against you to get info, which may have been the case.He also received medical help while other POW's did not.

 

He's tough to have made it out alive, but that's it.I'm not convinced he is telling the truth. I also find it weird how he votes against vet issues and the war.Voting to torture when you say you were tortured? And, if his story is true, his head must be a real messed up playground I don't want to play in.

 

I would hope to never be in such a situation, being a prisoner of war. I don't know how I would react in such a situation, but I know enough that I would never chastise someone for how they react in such a situation. Not to sound like an old fart, but we could certainly use to regain some of the moral fiber of the Greatest Generation.

 

A co-worker's brother was stationed in Iraq, and when McCain visited, he essentially snubbed the troops, which lost him one vote apparently.

 

My concerns in 2008 continue to go back to the fact that once the election is over, somehow there has to be some unions across the aisle if the country is to pull out of myriad messes. Which one, McCain or Obama, is going to be the best candidate to help unify and move forward?

[MrRain422]

McCain said he violated the Code of Conduct for POWs by accepting special favors from the enemy like tea, coffee, & ciggs during interviews with foreign dignitaries in posh settings. His exact words. You have to say big things to get these small rewards. He is (was) a tough dude, but I just don't consider him a war hero. I do respect he fought for his country unlike those that used their family connections to avoid war. Being a POW does not make you a war hero, and it should never be used for selfish pursuits. A real POW would die before selling his country out. That is why they practice the Code of Conduct in fun pretend settings, in case they are taken. Accepting ciggs shows a weakness thay can use against you to get info, which may have been the case.He also received medical help while other POW's did not.

 

I just think that there are enough things in his record in Congress and the way he's managed his campaign to make all of this irrelevent. What's the point of attacking a candidate with unlikely speculation from 40 years ago when there are a lot of things about who he is now to go after? And taking that tack just encourages Obama's opponents to exaggerate crazy rumors about his past too. It's not much different from the secret Muslim emails.

 

He's tough to have made it out alive, but that's it.I'm not convinced he is telling the truth. I also find it weird how he votes against vet issues and the war.Voting to torture when you say you were tortured? And, if his story is true, his head must be a real messed up playground I don't want to play in.

 

Voting to allow torture is crazy enough whether you've been tortured or not. His change in stance regarding torture is deplorable enough without having to inject that angle into it.

[Party @ the Moontower]

You know this thread is a perfect example of how we end up electing unqualified shitheads (I'm looking at you George Bush). We as the electorate let the media and the various campaigns lead us down pathways that have little real relevance. We bite the lies hook line and sinker if the lies say what we want to hear. We buy the stories and tales about what is and isn't relevant and tend to ignore the policies we can anticipate the candidates enacting if elected. It has become far more important today to see whether a candidate attends church, wears a flag pin, eats French fries or freedoms fries, etc

[John Smith]

Take the whole POW issue off the table for a minute and look at McCain as he is. Look at what he has done and how he has done it, is he a likeable guy? How he dumped his first wife and married the rich girl is not a very good indicator. Now bring back the POW issue, is he exploiting his own status as a POW for personal gain? Is the sum of what he iis so heavily weighted by being a POW 40 years ago thhat it overrides all about him today?

[Guest Jules]

Take the whole POW issue off the table for a minute and look at McCain as he is. Look at what he has done and how he has done it, is he a likeable guy? How he dumped his first wife and married the rich girl is not a very good indicator. Now bring back the POW issue, is he exploiting his own status as a POW for personal gain? Is the sum of what he iis so heavily weighted by being a POW 40 years ago thhat it overrides all about him today?

I guess none of this really matters anymore, seeing as he will probably be our next president.

[Party @ the Moontower]

I guess none of this really matters anymore, seeing as he will probably be our next president.

 

 

I'll go on a hunger strike and probably end up looking pretty hot. The death look is still in they say.

[sweetheart-mine]

mccain's senate votes and his turnaround since 2000 show that there are more than enough reasons not to put him in the white house. i see no point in going back forty years in an attempt to discredit his behavior as a p.o.w., because we'll never know what it was, i also think it doesn't matter, and the attempt smells like the dirty politics route that has become so disgusting in political life. my opinion is to move on from that; it's the path down, not up.

[Guest Jules]

i see no point in going back forty years in an attempt to discredit his behavior as a p.o.w., because we'll never know what it was, i also think it doesn't matter, and the attempt smells like the dirty politics route that has become so disgusting in political life. my opinion is to move on from that; it's the path down, not up.

Yes, but it's all that's left.

[Good Old Neon]

McCain said he violated the Code of Conduct for POWs by accepting special favors from the enemy like tea, coffee, & ciggs during interviews with foreign dignitaries in posh settings. His exact words. You have to say big things to get these small rewards. He is (was) a tough dude, but I just don't consider him a war hero. I do respect he fought for his country unlike those that used their family connections to avoid war. Being a POW does not make you a war hero, and it should never be used for selfish pursuits. A real POW would die before selling his country out. That is why they practice the Code of Conduct in fun pretend settings, in case they are taken. Accepting ciggs shows a weakness thay can use against you to get info, which may have been the case.He also received medical help while other POW's did not.

 

He's tough to have made it out alive, but that's it.I'm not convinced he is telling the truth. I also find it weird how he votes against vet issues and the war.Voting to torture when you say you were tortured? And, if his story is true, his head must be a

real messed up playground I don't want to play in.

 

I tend to agree with you on many issues, however, I think you are underestimating the severe, often excruciating duress McCain and other POW

[Party @ the Moontower]

quote name='kimcatch22' date='Aug 12 2008, 10:27 AM' post='1179877']So people can throw around the "Nazi" term and it's ok because it's internet humor, right? I'd just like a list of things that are funny and not funny by moontower's standards. So far I've got homophobia and genocide as funny things.

 

I also make fun of white people. FYI, I was a better person and removed the CM comments you are referring to, AND sent a special PM to Lauren who felt it was homophobic and rude in nature.And she accepted the apology. Just so you know. And, are you going to call the writers on Seinfeld and complain about the Soup Nazi?

[Party @ the Moontower]

I tend to agree with you on many issues, however, I think you are underestimating the severe, often excruciating duress McCain and other POW's are under. And short of actually living through the experience, I don't think there is a single one of us who can speculate upon, with any certainty, how we would behave.

 

I've been through tons of physical shit and have an extremely high tolerance for pain, but if you were to hook me up to a battery or subject me to any number of gruesome torture devices and practices, well, I imagine I'd even go so far and sink so low as to demand Bush be given a third or more terms.

 

Good points. I like the last line the best. I'd give in to anything as a POW for a little chocolate and wine. I understand what you are saying, but I am afraid many will vote for him because he says he is a war hero and not because of anything else. But, some will vote for Obama without looking at didley squat.

[Guest Jules]

So, Obama's now taking advice from George Clooney? Nice.

[JUDE]

So, Obama's now taking advice from George Clooney? Nice.

 

Oceans' 14!

[PigSooie]

We three kings be stealing some loot.

[fatheadfred]

You definately do not riise in the military wiithout either displaying some ability or without having proper mentors. Eisenhower had the mentors and the ability, Colin Powell had the mentors and was really intelligents, but never comanded large formations. McCain never comanded the large formations. There is a huge differennce between fleet admirals and rear admirals. Soemwhere in McCains service something happend along the way that mmade people say no not him, he should not command a fleet. Why? What? Is it his firey temperment? Was it the fooling around (Yes that will impair your military career). But either way McCain has to have had a great deal of intelligence to be a naval aviator and to riise as high as he did, but why was he tracked to the desk and not to the bridge?

 

Very good point.

 

While Barry does not have the volume of leadership tests, he does seem to articulate the direction the US is trending closer toward peaceful nation that intercedes only when absolutely necessary moreso than Johnny boy. I will admit some of his recent statements about Israel and Iran were disturbing (to appease the Jewish vote). Yes, he is a politician, a vote whore.

 

But, if the GOP strategists are so smart, why did they let McCain get to this point? They knew he would be a suck ass candidate. He has too much experience, i.e. too many variables to consider and some are gray, while Barry has a fairly clean slate.

[mfwahl]

mccain's senate votes and his turnaround since 2000 show that there are more than enough reasons not to put him in the white house. i see no point in going back forty years in an attempt to discredit his behavior as a p.o.w., because we'll never know what it was, i also think it doesn't matter, and the attempt smells like the dirty politics route that has become so disgusting in political life. my opinion is to move on from that; it's the path down, not up.

I agree. It's not really relevant.

 

Plus isn't this thread about who's infidelity is worse, Edwards or McCain?

 

Just kidding. I think it's all pretty juvenile. The only thing out of this that annoys me is that Edwards continued to run knowing that this would probably come out and kill Democrats chances of winning.