Brand Spanking New Election Thread

[Party @ the Moontower]

Oh for heaven's sake. If I read correctly, Lammycat wasn't talking about not showing up to vote, but rather not voting for specific offices.

 

 

This discussion stems from defending someone who isn't voting for anything because no one represents this person. All politicians are the same argument.

[Sal]

You miss the entire point.

 

I'm not saying it's "cool" not to vote. Eh. I guess anyone who doesn't vote loses his/her constitutional rights to voice opinions. I agree that you should vote for what your heart tells you to, for whom aligns with your voice personally. My question: what if your heart tells you "no one?" Accordingly, you should still vote!!!

 

 

Here are some reasons to vote: two wars going on, 6% unemployment rate (and that is generous), housing crisis, wall street financials going bankrupt, huge budget deficit, we owe a shit ton of money to everyone, millions uninsured, oncoming retirement of the baby boomers, our waning standing in the world, Russian resurgence, up to three Supreme Court Justices retiring in the next 4 to 6 years, no energy policy and an expanded executive power thanks to the sitting President.

 

If you honestly think that there is no difference between McCain and Obama on all of these issues than don't vote.

[Lammycat]

Run for office yourself? Find someone else to write-in? Is there absolutely no one on god's green earth (or, at least, an American-born, non-felon, citizen over the age of 36) worth voting for? Someone who doesn't vote and doesn't seek an alternative to the arrangement and still feels compelled to complain is a curmudgeon. Someone who doesn't vote, thinks the world spins fine without his or her input, and doesn't complain about the jackass in office is okay in my book.

 

People who wait around for an awesome candidate to pop up out of the ether confound me (and that isn't to say that you, Lammycat, are one of those people). If revolution comes, it's not going to be on a ballot. Any change that happens through elections is going to happen gradually, but it isn't going to happen if the people that want it don't seek it. Also, it likely won't happen to a dramatic or even noticeable extent throughout a single generation. But that doesn't mean it won't happen, and that doesn't mean there's nothing you can do.

 

 

 

Oh for heaven's sake. If I read correctly, Lammycat wasn't talking about not showing up to vote, but rather not voting for specific offices.

But writing in a candidate gets slammed.

 

It's not so much the candidates as the process/confinements. I'm not "waiting around" for a decent human to step up as much as I am comfortable with the educated knowledge that a lot of the machine is horse shit. Sorry. I don't buy that things will change. It's my take. I'm aware of the implications of Supreme Court justices being appointed, etc. That is important to me.

 

Whether or not I'm on a local board of my city doesn't matter for shit in this conversation. Small town/city change is easier to delegate/monitor/participate in. What matters, to me, is if I feel comfortable pulling a lever with confidence for a cat to run the country I live in.

 

Regardless, I realize my obligation to put the best person possible in that office. I'll more than likely do my part.

[Party @ the Moontower]

But writing in a candidate gets slammed.

 

It's not so much the candidates as the process/confinements. I'm not "waiting around" for a decent human to step up as much as I am comfortable with the educated knowledge that a lot of the machine is horse shit. Sorry. I don't buy that things will change. It's my take. I'm aware of the implications of Supreme Court justices being appointed, etc. That is important to me.

 

Whether or not I'm on a local board of my city doesn't matter for shit in this conversation. Small town/city change is easier to delegate/monitor/participate in. What matters, to me, is if I feel comfortable pulling a lever with confidence for a cat to run the country I live in.

 

Regardless, I realize my obligation to put the best person possible in that office. I'll more than likely do my part.

 

I think it was assumed I was arguing a point against you, but it was against the uneducated non-voter who just decides not to vote cause it sounds like he's taking a stand, when in fact he is not. You have already said "I'm torn between a write-in and Obama, actually." So I am aware you are doing your homework. If you still decide not to vote, write in a vote, or vote Obama, @ least your decision has some substance.

[Lammycat]

If you honestly think that there is no difference between McCain and Obama on all of these issues than don't vote.

The differences, in my opinion, are slight. Campaign promises are one thing. Action is another. Everyone gets caught up in the hype of a new future but reality dictates that it's the same ol' song and dance. Obama made a great speech and says things people want to hear. So what? Yeah, I'm jaded.

[Guest Speed Racer]

The differences, in my opinion, are slight. Campaign promises are one thing. Action is another. Everyone gets caught up in the hype of a new future but reality dictates that it's the same ol' song and dance. Obama made a great speech and says things people want to hear. So what? Yeah, I'm jaded.

 

I agree to a large extent. Obama, if elected, will be a moderate Democrat and likely not any sort of change we can believe in. But you know what? I'll stand in place for 4 (8?) years gladly if it means not catapulting back to the 17th century courtesy of Caribou Barbie and McCain. I'll probably be legally allowed to marry before I die regardless of who's elected this November, but I'm confident it'll happen sooner with an Obama/Biden administration than it will on a McCain/Palin ticket.

[Edie]

 

Yeah, but it was Reagan that began my journey into the democratic party. The Iran-contra mess was the kicker.

 

 

What's wrong with Alito and Roberts? They are two conservative judges appointed to replace two conservative judges. If you want a balanced Supreme Court, wouldn't appointments by Gore or Kerry have upset that balance?

 

Alito and Roberts are both very conservative. Yes, but neither Gore nor Kerry won.

 

 

 

Karl Rove Advising McCain Campaign

 

This is bullshit -- the current feint and parry ads and strategy is purely Rovian. The lack of access to a VP candidate, and the immediate, vociferous complaining about anything that is said or insinuated about about her is unprecedented. He is clearly helping.

 

 

In other news Karl Rove is now criticizing the McCain/Lipstick-Pitbull campaign:

 

cnn:karl rove on the mccain campaign

 

 

I hear O'Reily even backs Obama. Maybe the poles are gonna shift.

 

I heard something yesterday about how O'Reilly respects him, but is not for him. I looked on his site but couldn't find a link.

[Party @ the Moontower]

Someone posted a pic from this insane stuff on another thread & it brought back bad memories from watching this scary movement.

 

Why I want God and religion out of politics...

[Party @ the Moontower]

I heard something yesterday about how O'Reilly respects him, but is not for him. I looked on his site but couldn't find a link.

 

 

I'm keeping an eye on O' Reilly because he sways so many voters, but he seems a bit soft on Obama. I read the owner of Fox, Murdoch is an Obama supporter. May not vote for him, but likes him.

 

It could be an O'Reilly trick though...

Present yourself as a reasonable person by defending O against clearly bogus accusations. Then, when you attack him later on more bigger issues than lipstick, it will be more effective.

[viatroy]

Why I want God and religion out of politics...

 

 

This piece is absolutely compelling on this point. The Renewed Mind is the Key

 

 

It really is worth watching the whole damn thing, as painful as it is.

[Party @ the Moontower]

This piece is absolutely compelling on this point. The Renewed Mind is the Key

 

 

It really is worth watching the whole damn thing, as painful as it is.

 

 

I may need to drink some wine first, but I will watch it.

 

Edit: is that for real Viatroy? It can't be...

[viatroy]

drink some wine first, I would advise it.

[Party @ the Moontower]

C'mon, that can't be real. I think I would pay to see this live though. Drugs... people need to get off em, while some need to be on more!

[Sal]

The differences, in my opinion, are slight. Campaign promises are one thing. Action is another. Everyone gets caught up in the hype of a new future but reality dictates that it's the same ol' song and dance. Obama made a great speech and says things people want to hear. So what? Yeah, I'm jaded.

 

 

Economy - Obama is for pumping in a lot of money for the auto industry to transition to better technology and to be leaders in new fuel technology, Obama is for more regulation of the markets(see the housing market), he is for bigger tax breaks for small business owners, he is for actually making corporations pay their taxes(40% of all US Corps have not paid taxes for the last 6 years); McCain - I am not quite sure what all he is for since he won't actually say, his campaign manager was a lobbyist for Fannie and Freddie he lobbied for deregulation of the housing market, the head of McCain's transition team is one of the leading lobbyists for the oil industry, McCain is on record saying that he thinks the economy is strong, he does not believe in rolling back the Bush tax cuts.

 

War - Obama is for a phased pull out in Iraq and for adding two brigades in Afghanistan, he is also for talking to our enemies to find common ground rather than using war option first; McCain - is for staying in Iraq.

 

Health Care - Obama is for more comprehensive health care for all although I am not the biggest fan of his plan, the plan he is most likely to sign into law is the Conyers plan which is almost a sigle payer system; McCain - is for taxing the cost of health care that you have through your employer, example if you make $50k per year and your insurance is worth $12k you will be taxed like you were making $62K, but then he would give you a $5K tax rebate leaving you $7k in the whole.

 

Alt Energy - Obama is for exploring all options(wind, solar, hydro, clean coal) mainly by subsidies and tax breaks to spur innovation; McCain - drill baby drill, including Alaska the US holds 3% of world reserves but uses 25% of the oil supply.

 

Coincidentally the first country to get an oil contract from Iraq was China.

 

Supreme Court - Obama will appoint more liberal judges, McCain will appoint conservative (think Scalia)

 

Obama wants to cut defense spending. The US spends more on defense than all the other NATO countries combined.

 

These are just some of the differences. I take great offense when people say I am voting for Obama just because he can give a good speech. That is such a bullshit argument, you don't know me.

[bobbob1313]

Here are some reasons to vote: two wars going on, 6% unemployment rate (and that is generous), housing crisis, wall street financials going bankrupt, huge budget deficit, we owe a shit ton of money to everyone, millions uninsured, oncoming retirement of the baby boomers, our waning standing in the world, Russian resurgence, up to three Supreme Court Justices retiring in the next 4 to 6 years, no energy policy and an expanded executive power thanks to the sitting President.

 

If you honestly think that there is no difference between McCain and Obama on all of these issues than don't vote.

 

What if you don't think either of them had it right on those issues? There aren't just two sides and solutions to every issue.

[Party @ the Moontower]

What if you don't think either of them had it right on those issues? There aren't just two sides and solutions to every issue.

 

 

http://www.viralvideochart.com/youtube/the...?id=D7myO3imGy0

[Sal]

What if you don't think either of them had it right on those issues? There aren't just two sides and solutions to every issue.

 

I never said there were only two solutions. I don't even care if you vote. I was just pointing out the fact that there are some serious problems we as a country are facing. Important issues. But if you don't make your voice heard than I don't know how you expect anything to ever change.

[Analogman]

Economy - Obama is for pumping in a lot of money for the auto industry to transition to better technology and to be leaders in new fuel technology, Obama is for more regulation of the markets(see the housing market), he is for bigger tax breaks for small business owners, he is for actually making corporations pay their taxes(40% of all US Corps have not paid taxes for the last 6 years); McCain - I am not quite sure what all he is for since he won't actually say, his campaign manager was a lobbyist for Fannie and Freddie he lobbied for deregulation of the housing market, the head of McCain's transition team is one of the leading lobbyists for the oil industry, McCain is on record saying that he thinks the economy is strong, he does not believe in rolling back the Bush tax cuts.

 

War - Obama is for a phased pull out in Iraq and for adding two brigades in Afghanistan, he is also for talking to our enemies to find common ground rather than using war option first; McCain - is for staying in Iraq.

 

Health Care - Obama is for more comprehensive health care for all although I am not the biggest fan of his plan, the plan he is most likely to sign into law is the Conyers plan which is almost a sigle payer system; McCain - is for taxing the cost of health care that you have through your employer, example if you make $50k per year and your insurance is worth $12k you will be taxed like you were making $62K, but then he would give you a $5K tax rebate leaving you $7k in the whole.

 

Alt Energy - Obama is for exploring all options(wind, solar, hydro, clean coal) mainly by subsidies and tax breaks to spur innovation; McCain - drill baby drill, including Alaska the US holds 3% of world reserves but uses 25% of the oil supply.

 

Coincidentally the first country to get an oil contract from Iraq was China.

 

Supreme Court - Obama will appoint more liberal judges, McCain will appoint conservative (think Scalia)

 

Obama wants to cut defense spending. The US spends more on defense than all the other NATO countries combined.

 

These are just some of the differences. I take great offense when people say I am voting for Obama just because he can give a good speech. That is such a bullshit argument, you don't know me.

 

Thank you for posting that information.

[Sal]

Thank you for posting that information.

 

 

No problem.

[Lammycat]

Because a candidate is "for" things you agree with does not mean those things will actually happen. I understand the ideology behind it and the cause to vote for the person you agree with, but that alone doesn't mean shit will actually change. There's still a checks-and-balances system and a lot of what both sides preach never amounts to squat.

 

Yeah, voting is cool. Voice heard and all. Change? I'm not convinced.

[sweetheart-mine]

Because a candidate is "for" things you agree with does not mean those things will actually happen. I understand the ideology behind it and the cause to vote for the person you agree with, but that alone doesn't mean shit will actually change. There's still a checks-and-balances system and a lot of what both sides preach never amounts to squat.

 

Yeah, voting is cool. Voice heard and all. Change? I'm not convinced.

 

bush and company have changed more in eight years than anyone ever could have imagined. i'm not sure how one could miss that fact.

[LouieB]

I am just amazed all this talk about a third party during what is perhaps the least important third party election in recent history. None of the candidates with the possible exception of Ron Paul, has any traction.

 

Anyway..two brillant op-ed pieces from the NY Times today Frank Rich always insightful and equally as insightful Thomas L. Friedman. Check out what these guys have to say since they are funnier and more to the point than I am.....

 

BUT if you really have to write someone in....feel free to write MY NAME in. (Anyone needing my full name just PM me...) I will be happy to serve as the third party surrogate for everyone's little fantasy that Ron Paul and/or Ralph Nader or the laughable Greens are going to save this nation. In point of fact, unlike all of these people, I ain't gonna bullshit anyone, or lie about what I can or can't do. So vote for me, okay...seriously....what do you have to lose....my credentials are just about as good as anyone elses (obviously). I have worked with poor people for a long time (most of my working life), I know the government (I work for one), I have lived a reasonable amount of time, I am from the same city as Barak Obama AND I really really dig Wilco and have met every band member and some of the alumni members and have had a political discussion or two with Jeff Tweedy. Now doesn't that make me qualified? I think so. Hell I will even wear lipstick if that is what it takes (cause I can be a pig....). I am solidly middle class, not too bright or too dumb, know what the Bush doctor-in is, blah blah blah...vote me. I won't promise you anything I can't deliver.....so vote for me.....

 

LouieB

[Party @ the Moontower]

.....so vote for me.....

 

LouieB

 

 

What's your VP look like?

[Sal]

Because a candidate is "for" things you agree with does not mean those things will actually happen. I understand the ideology behind it and the cause to vote for the person you agree with, but that alone doesn't mean shit will actually change. There's still a checks-and-balances system and a lot of what both sides preach never amounts to squat.

 

Yeah, voting is cool. Voice heard and all. Change? I'm not convinced.

 

 

With the Dems in control of Congress and the executive they would be more likely to get things passed. Obviously I can't tell you what would change because I cannot see into the future.

 

I heard the same argument in 2000, no difference between Bush and Gore. I heard it again in 2004 between Bush and Kerry. I think there were some serious policy differences between Bush, Gore and Kerry. I don't think we would be in the same position if those elections had turned out differently. Just as there are serious policy differences between Obama and McCain.

 

As far as checks and balances, between 2000 and 2006 there were none. Republicans controlled the House, Senate and White House. Since 2006, the Dems have controlled Congress but do not have enough votes to override a Pres veto. Also, Bush did not veto one bill between 2000 and 2006 that the Repubs passed, since then he has issued many. And lastly, we have seen an expansion of the Executive power in the last 8 years that before now was unimaginable.

[Party @ the Moontower]