New and Improved 3-ply election thread...

[jakobnicholas]

Exactly it took Bush a while to undo the economic gains, peace and prosperity of the Clinton years.

 

 

 

 

Stories are starting to come out now about how Clinton is one of the reasons so many people took out loans to buy houses. I'm not saying it's all HIS fault, but the Clinton years contributed fairly greatly to the current economic downfall.

 

And I don't know enough to debate it, but I know many blame Clinton for a much of the terrorism that's gone since he left. Again...not blaming him for anything like 911, but I think most would agree he could have been a little tougher internationally.

 

 

 

Wanna talk mess clean up? How about Reagan cleaning up Carter's mess?

[fatheadfred]

If you look back at the agricultural sector, including support industries and manufacturing, they were well in decline in 1999-2000. The company I worked for at the time was caught in this and still hasn't recovered.

 

So the car was in an uncontrollable skid prior to Bush taking office if you want to continue the crash analogy.

 

It is interesting to note that industrial agriculture was supported by the US, thus allowing small farmers to feel the crash. Who is going to feel the Wall St. crash of 08? The small people.

[fatheadfred]

Stories are starting to come out now about how Clinton is one of the reasons so many people took out loans to buy houses. I'm not saying it's all HIS fault, but the Clinton years contributed fairly greatly to the current economic downfall.

 

And I don't know enough to debate it, but I know many blame Clinton for a much of the terrorism that's gone since he left. Again...not blaming him for anything like 911, but I think most would agree he could have been a little tougher internationally.

 

 

 

Wanna talk mess clean up? How about Reagan cleaning up Carter's mess?

 

It was Phil Gramm and his band of idiots that deregulated the mess allowing shady loan transfers to go on. Don't confuse that with Clinton being in office during an economic boom thus people feeling they were getting somewhere economically. That's like saying you blame Clinton for presiding over prosperous times.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Stories are starting to come about Clinton is one of the reasons so many people took out loans to buy houses. I'm not saying it's all HIS fault, but the Clinton years contributed fairly greatley to the current economic downfall.

 

Source? Ever hear of Bush's "Ownership Society"?

 

And I don't know enough to debate it, but I know many blame Clinton for a much of the terrorism that's gone since he left. Again...not blaming him for anything like 911, but I think most would agree he could have been a little tougher internationally.

 

Why do you beat your wife?

 

 

 

Wanna talk mess clean up? How about Reagan cleaning up Carter's mess?

Yes, Reaganomics did a great job of making (some) Baby boomers wealthy and passing the tab on to the next generation.

[JUDE]

It is interesting to note that industrial agriculture was supported by the US, thus allowing small farmers to feel the crash. Who is going to feel the Wall St. crash of 08? The small people.

 

Once again, we've reached the point where I'm gonna need a decoder ring to decipher your posts.

[John Smith]

I'm not denying anything. Many aspects of the US economy were in the shit starting in August 2000 or so, well before Bush even took office. Many people think it was all 9/11 and after, but that is inaccurate.

 

You are correct it is inaccurate. The tech bubble had burst in 2000 (more like spring 2000) but nothing like what we are facing now, not even close. Beyond that the seven years prior to the burst were pretty good years, or as George Bush said during his campaign in 2000 he was running against eight years of peace and prosperity. One more thing go back and take a look at the economy. Take a look at each major talk Bush gave on the economy in 2001 and overlay that with the stock market

[fatheadfred]

I agree with that. The Internet bubble was bursting. I don't think enough was done mitigate the damage. Clinton certainly bears some responsibility for that. Greenspan was hailed as a genius in those days. Today... not so much. But Bush did no better and I would argue he did much worse.

While reading Greenspan's book I got the sense that he never did anything except let it ride and keep people from falsifying the reality of the economy. Now that we have seen the effects of faking good, I see how important his role was.

[John Smith]

Wanna talk mess clean up? How about Reagan cleaning up Carter's mess?

 

I'll stick to my guns and say he did have a mess to clean up, but the mess started in the early 1970's with the Ford adminsitration and continued through to about mid 1984. Now will you stick to your guns and saya good elader could have cleaned it up and got things on track through leadership? If so why did the crappy economy continue for three years under reagan?

[fatheadfred]

Once again, we've reached the point where I'm gonna need a decoder ring to decipher your posts.

 

Ok, I'll speak dork to you:

 

The federal government has done a lousy job looking out for the little people, the 98%. They did it in Agriculture when it busted and it appears they are doing the same with the financial difficulties they face on Wall St.

[bleedorange]

It was Phil Gramm and his band of idiots that deregulated the mess allowing shady loan transfers to go on. Don't confuse that with Clinton being in office during an economic boom thus people feeling they were getting somewhere economically. That's like saying you blame Clinton for presiding over prosperous times.

 

I know this is the popular way of thinking on this board, but the main problem stems from encouraging these companies to fully immerse themselves into the subprime market and provide home loans to people that couldn't afford to buy houses. Which is why McCain's endorsement of Andrew Cuomo, who led the charge on this whole mess as HUD Secretary under Clinton, is very puzzling and concerning.

[explodo]

Kind of like what Bush inherited from Clinton?

You mean the Republican dream of a balanced budget and low deficit?

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Oops. Didn't see viatroy had said exactly what I thought in reaction to this high quality post from the good-natured gentleman with the Pulp Fiction avatar. So I posted pretty much the exact same thing.

[Guest Jules]

You are correct it is inaccurate. The tech bubble had burst in 2000 (more like spring 2000) but nothing like what we are facing now, not even close. Beyond that the seven years prior to the burst were pretty good years, or as George Bush said during his campaign in 2000 he was running against eight years of peace and prosperity. One more thing go back and take a look at the economy. Take a look at each major talk Bush gave on the economy in 2001 and overlay that with the stock market

[fatheadfred]

I know this is the popular way of thinking on this board, but the main problem stems from encouraging these companies to fully immerse themselves into the subprime market and provide home loans to people that couldn't afford to buy houses. Which is why McCain's endorsement of Andrew Cuomo, who led the charge on this whole mess as HUD Secretary under Clinton, is very puzzling and concerning.

 

Because Gramm passed that shit so that banks receiving the mortgage didn't have to make good on them. They were just finders for loans that were believed to be guaranteed by the gov't through Freddie Fuckstick. Guess what, the rich execs gutted that shit. Maybe if some control would've remained that wouldn't have happened. Finder banks wouldn't have been so quick to get signees. The interest rate wouldn't have been manipulated. Bush wouldn't have pushed for that ownership b.s. that someone referred to earlier. You know, the more people bring this shit up the more I remember (that I have repressed) that the DickBush administration has done to fuck us over for awhile.

[bleedorange]

Because Gramm passed that shit so that banks receiving the mortgage didn't have to make good on them. They were just finders for loans that were believed to be guaranteed by the gov't through Freddie Fuckstick. Guess what, the rich execs gutted that shit. Maybe if some control would've remained that wouldn't have happened. Finder banks wouldn't have been so quick to get signees. The interest rate wouldn't have been manipulated. Bush wouldn't have pushed for that ownership b.s. that someone referred to earlier. You know, the more people bring this shit up the more I remember (that I have repressed) that the DickBush administration has done to fuck us over for awhile.

 

 

I didn't realize that Phil Gramm had the kind of power to pass and sign legislation himself as a senator.

[fatheadfred]

I didn't realize that Phil Gramm had the kind of power to pass and sign legislation himself as a senator.

snuck that sumbitch in right before Xmas, pulled an Anslinger. He was a bastard a hole too.

[Dreamin']

New cover of EW. Stewart/Colbert 08

Mock the Vote

[MrRain422]

At least the debate here over who is to blame for this mess is focused on people who were in power at the time that various laws/regulations were enacted or un-enacted. The other day Secretary Paulson actually placed part of the blame on "future administrations". Somehow.

[fatheadfred]

The mortgage swaps distancing the originator of the loan from the ultimate collector were made legal only as a result of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which former Senator Phil Gramm, R-Texas, pushed through Congress just hours before the 2000 Christmas recess. Gramm, until recently co-chair of the McCain campaign, also had co-authored the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which became law in 1999 with President Bill Clinton's signature. That gem, which Gramm had pushed for years with massive financial industry lobbying, destroyed the Depression-era barrier to the merger of stockbrokers, banks and insurance companies. Those two acts effectively ended significant regulation of the financial community, and no wonder we have witnessed an even more rapid and severe meltdown in housing values than during the Great Depression.

 

a blip from http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080922/scheer

bunch of liberal bullshit

[kwall]

I feel as though it's entirely possible that Palin has put zero thought into foreign policy before last month -- which is fine, foreign policy isn't a big concern to the mayor of Wasilla, and only a little bit more of a concern to the government of Alaska. I just would rather that they said, no, she doesn't have foreign policy experience but she's learning very quickly, instead of taking me for an idiot who thinks that the fact that Russia can be seen from some remote Alaskan island that Palin has never visited counts as some sort of foreign policy credential.

i agree completely. governors don't usually have significant foreign policy experience (e.g. bush, clinton, reagan, carter) i can't understand why it's worth it to try to make stuff up.

[bobbob1313]

that was a conspiracy, right Bobjude?

 

Fuck the heck are you talking about, dude?

[kwall]

You also won't find any conservatives criticizing Bush or standing idly by when Bush is taken to task.

you're not looking very hard. i don't know any conservatives who think much of bush.

[kwall]

I don't think he's overreacting. Many of those I know who get their news from the usual sources (FOX, Talk Radio etc...) think the same way. They see doom and gloom if Obama get elected. Of course to them everything is just great right now and the only problem is that the liberal media keeps making up stuff to embarass Bush and hinder McCains efforts at getting into the White House. Seriously, no satire or snarkiness on this post. But they are a black and white group, for the past eight years it has been either do it their way with the only alternative being total ruin and damnation, there are no gradations. Even if everything went perfectly for President Obama the economy rebounded, our debt went down OBL captured terrorism ends, they still would hate it because it is not them calling the shots and things would be shitty in their minds. These guys can enact a failed policy watch it fail and still not blink and eye as they talk up the policy as eing sucessfull even in the face of evidence to the contrary (spefically i'm thinking trickle down economics, deficits do not matter, tax cuts pay for themselves, democracy out of the barrell of a gun end others) They still view the 1990's as some of the worst times in American history. With that crowd it is a no-win situation for Obama regardless of the reality here on earth.

you know a lot of stupid people.

[SeattleC]

The liberal media isn't, what a myth. The conservative bias in our media is obvious. Even the New York Times isn't the liberal paper that some claim it to be. William Safire and David Brooks as editorial columnists. C'mon. Rupert Murdoch is winning, isn't he?

 

I'm a centrist, but I challenge you to give me three good reasons to vote for McCain (don't even mention the war hero stuff). Anybody who associates themselves with the party that had eight years to run things and left us with this, most of them with the congress and the the Supreme Court on their side, doesn't deserve anyone's vote. I'll give you three reasons why I won't pull the lever for any Republican this year:

 

1. Wars that never should have been started

2. Pending retirement of at least two Supreme Court justices

3. Total lack of fiscal conservatism

[LouieB]

I won't pull the lever for any Republican this year:

 

1. Wars that never should have been started

2. Pending retirement of at least two Supreme Court justices

3. Total lack of fiscal conservatism

Why would you pull the Republican lever any year if these things are important to you?? Fiscal conservatives haven't been fiscally conservitive since Barry Goldwater and I am betting you weren't old enough to vote that year, because neither was I. Certainly since Reagan no conservatives have been fiscally responsible.

 

LouieB

[SeattleC]

Yes, why indeed? It's true I couldn't vote for Goldwater, but I was alive then . He was the first Republican my father ever voted for. I can imagine what they'd both think of this fiasco.

 

Jon Oliver said it well a couple of nights ago on the Daily Show: 'Bush could still, if he works hard enough, be the last president.'