Silver Jews vs. Radiohead

[MattZ]

In an interview with Pitchfork, David Berman said:

[mjpuczko]

i like radiohead but they are so freakin' overrated. i would tend to agree with these comments.

[brianjeremy]

When I saw him a month ago, he said something about his recent comments about how radiohead sucked but didn't really elaborate. He said he was sorry for making those remarks and saying bad things about South Carolina too.

 

I listen to both but prefer the Jews.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Dude relax it's music.

[Degenerex]

The Bends and OK Computer are absolutely incredible. I agree about them being overrated ever since.

 

That being said - I've always been a lyrics man myself.

[Whitty]

That sounds like David, based on my brief encounters with him (we have some mutual friends) and all the interviews I've ever seen.

 

He makes a compelling case that mirrors many of my own Radiohead criticisms- their austere coldness, their singularity of mood, and well... the fact that they'll never make anything nearly as good as OK Computer again, to be honest. There is a sense that Radiohead isn't quite as deep as some of their more fervent fans would have you believe. Four feet of misery can drown you the same as a thousand feet, right?

 

I like both bands, but the Jews are certainly the one that will leave your feet tapping after the music is over and savoring one of Berman's fantastic aphorisms. Hard to think of two bands coming from more opposite ends of the rock spectrum, though...

 

I'll will continue to rock out to the opening riff from "Airbag" and the ending refrain to "Punks in the Beerlight" with heartfelt love for both.

[Winston Legthigh]

I think I probably just embarrassed you with the idea that you may have been

spending so many years on music that has nothing to say to people of the future.

Some feel compelled to put others' tastes down.

Meh.

[MattZ]

Moe, I presented these quotes out of context, but the blurb from the message board was in response to a fan's diatribe about how wrong Berman was/is, which sort of explains why he goes off. I think he'd agree with you that it's all just music, and I think his ire was more directed at this person's response being just more evidence that Radiohead has inspired a cult of victimhood and introspection that manifests itself as fans running to Radiohead's defense whenever someone critiques them.

 

I happen to like (not love) Radiohead and I think Berman goes a tad overboard, but what he says makes a lot of sense, too. And if you are a Berman fan (I am), the guy can't help but just spew out brilliance. Every line there is a gem. Which is why I think it has to be him. "Compassion-rig"? "Blue-collar republican"? Man, I love it. Might as well have been lifted from Actual Air.

[Winston Legthigh]

Now that I read a bulk of that thread, I can see where DCB is coming from - we need someone else to take the helm of "world's greatest band"

 

There doesn't seem to be anyone that is both large enough and dangerous enough to inspire a generation.

 

But, my favorite quote from that thread is:

 

Really, arguing on the internet is like running a race in the Special Olympics...at the end of the day, whoever wins is still retarded.

[jc4prez]

How is it Radioheads fault if they're fan base isn't doing anything to change the world?

 

I can't think of any rock band that led a social movement, marketing might lead some to believe otherwise.

 

 

As for the subject matter of their material, its art. If you want something different, listen to more albums. I never understood this argument against Radioheads music, is there any band that has a record to suit every mood? I think there are only a small number of places that "rock" music goes, I can't even begin to think of being musically satisfied by listening to one band.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Moe, I presented these quotes out of context, but the blurb from the message board was in response to a fan's diatribe about how wrong Berman was/is, which sort of explains why he goes off.

Well that makes more sense, I guess. I have stated time and again that i am a music-oriented person and lyrics rarely move me. I happen to find Radiohead's music infinitely more interesting than Berman's, but that's MY opinion. The thing with music is it is totally subjective. There are a lot of people who love Radiohead. That may be a head scratcher for some, but it is what it is. How can you tell someone that they are wrong to like the art and/or entertainment that they like. And many more like Radiohead's brand of art/entertainment than Berman's, hence they are labeled as the most important and he is not. Whatever. If anything these labels are silly in the first place and self-importance of rock music seems to know no bounds. I would tell those on both sides of the argument to put down the keyboard and pop in whatever music YOU like.

[yermom]

My boner for David just got bigger. I'm going to need new pants.

[MrRain422]

He's got some valid criticisms, but Radiohead is still probably the greatest band in the world.

[Jesusetc84]

He's got some valid criticisms, but Radiohead is still probably the greatest band in the world.

 

Except for the Jonas Brothers of course...

[Wilco LP #7]

Thenk you Berman for putting it in such clear and wonderful language. While Radiohead's aesthetic has always been one of the most amazing and unique in rock history, they are indeed a one tone band in both lyrics and music.

[Moe_Syzlak]

Thenk you Berman for putting it in such clear and wonderful language. While Radiohead's aesthetic has always been one of the most amazing and unique in rock history, they are indeed a one tone band in both lyrics and music.

Seriously!?! I mean I can understand the criticism lyrically (and I can even understand some backlash for their success), but how can anyone say The Bends and Kid A are even in the same ballpark musically, let alone "one tone"?

[Wilco LP #7]

Seriously!?! I mean I can understand the criticism lyrically (and I can even understand some backlash for their success), but how can anyone say The Bends and Kid A are even in the same ballpark musically, let alone "one tone"?

 

you're right. the bends is a diff ballpark. i'm thinking more along the lines of ok computer and everything that follows. instrumentation changes, sure, but the tone is all kind of the same.

[augurus]

I think most of the criticism focuses on the lyrics of Radiohead. Radiohead songs encompass listeners in a gloaming. Furthermore, the criticism mainly depends on your value system in music. Radiohead may have a big following but almost anyone could listen to them every since their exposure to mainstream radio. In stadium rock, a majority of your listeners will flock towards those beer stands that stand in stadiums. As the number of listeners increase, more and more idiots will statistically fall in place. It's not really fair to attack the fans either. There is no lump sum. Each individual has different tastes and value systems. Just because you're in a rock band doesn't mean that your understanding of music overwrites another person's value system.

 

In fact, as a fan you make my point. Radiohead has their fans so uninvolved in real suffering, that

they imagine a small band criticizing a hegemonic giant is out of line!

Ahahahahahaha...

That's very funny. So very funny. Do you think this DCB actually knows what the hell he's talking about?

The last I've checked, Radiohead have namechecked several NGOs on hand, in person, and on their website.

Each individual is responsible for their own actions. Fans do not accordingly to some band's lead singer's wishes.

 

I think those "themes of alienation" you find to be so brave, are the perfect market solution

for neutralizing rebeliious energies and funneling them into the hobby of merchandise capture,

which is something you can do on the computer , while you listen to your radiohead.

Why capitalism and music ?$$$?? ZURICH IS $TAINED!11!!

 

Just as Bush brought back the Imperial Presidency, Radiohead

have brought back the arrogance of stadium rock.

I love P=>Q, Q=>??, ?? !=> Q.

It makes it so much easier to poke holes at that person and make fun of them. So easy.

There's nothing wrong with stadium rock, unless you're afraid of music or even inspiring people.

 

Most of what DCB generalizes comes out as fecal matter found on the rim of a bathroom in a gas station on the I-94.

These attacks/accusations/rants while somewhat true, mostly exaggerate badger like a baby. He might be the next Liam Gallagher if Silver Jews received more attention. Most of this sounds like the same talk Gallagher defecates from the mouth out whenever someone calls Radiohead the best band in the world.

 

To be for this,as a rock fan you have to be against yourself. Like a blue collar republican.

Yes, because you and only you get to decide the identity of a rock fan.

 

So we received some generalizations (because people fear change, thus rely on mental organization) and hyprocritical accusations of unspecified degress. When do we actually get awesome and true arguments about why Radiohead suck?

[MattZ]

I happen to find Radiohead's music infinitely more interesting than Berman's, but that's MY opinion. The thing with music is it is totally subjective. There are a lot of people who love Radiohead.

 

I will take the blame for trying to start a discussion here without presenting the entire picture. Anyone interested should check out the Silver Jews message board. DCB has 2 posts in the thread (and the 2nd is as priceless as the first). That being said, I think "DCB" would agree with you Moe. I think his point is that music IS subjective and that there's really nothing wrong with true and honest critique. All art thrives with true and honest crtiique. Stifling discussion (or critique) ultimately harms the art. And a Radiohead fan who flies off the handle at the perceived slight of "his" band is part of the problem. In the context of this discussion, Berman wonders aloud whether the band itself, and the band's music, don't have something to do with the fan's "compaission rig" being all "futzed up."

 

I don't look to music to start any revolution or to change the world in any way, but I do agree that Radiohead is probably the biggest band in the world, and that this may be a reflection of the world. Aren't we a pretty passive and introspective lot? With passive and introspective music? Chicken and egg, maybe. But still interesting to consider.

[Kalle]

I totally get what he's saying about Radiohead's lyrics, and their bleak coldness. I've always thought Wilco was like a healthy tree (not to bring Wilco into the mix but I believe them to be alongside Radiohead for best band in the world at this moment) and Radiohead was a sheet of metal, just feeling I get I guess, maybe a bad analogy but who cares.

 

As for Radiohead being overrated, any of the greatest bands ever you could make a case for them being overrated (The Beatles, The Band, Dylan etc etc.), it's natural for the music community and press to put bands that are obviously a cut above on top of a pedestal.

[indy81]

The funny thing is that Berman assumes "the greatest band in the world" is supposed to inspire revolutionary political action, when this has absolutely never happened in the history of Western civilization. So it's sort of unfair to pick on Radiohead -- although I'm sure it's fun to tweak their ultra-sensitive fans. Radiohead will always have to deal with the contradictions between their anti-capitalist message and their own enormous multi-million dollar infrastructure.

 

And his linking of stadium rock with right-wing politics is simplistic, although it's a nice radical one-liner to snarl at someone when they don't support smaller bands.

[dondoboy]

How is it Radioheads fault if they're fan base isn't doing anything to change the world?

 

I can't think of any rock band that led a social movement, marketing might lead some to believe otherwise.

 

 

As for the subject matter of their material, its art. If you want something different, listen to more albums. I never understood this argument against Radioheads music, is there any band that has a record to suit every mood? I think there are only a small number of places that "rock" music goes, I can't even begin to think of being musically satisfied by listening to one band.

 

Well, I'd say the Beatles led a social movement, Bob Dylan did (even while denying it), Elvis Presely did.

 

And I wouldn't call their subject matter art. Doggerel maybe.

[halftheworldaway]

Radiohead are horrible, dont see how so many people think they are the best thing since sliced bread, I guess if you like whiney singers that are barely audible and stupid nosies instead of music there the band for you. Highly overrated, couldnt even get past the first song of In Rainbows, acutually couldnt even get past a min of that horrible piece of shit

[giraffo]

while I thing Berman is painting with a broad stroke (and kind of arrogantly too) I agree with him and this kind of materializes my feelings on Radiohead in general. Sure, they're an incredibly unique band, but even at The Bends all you have is this whining sense of self pity and agony. Seriously, Thom Yorke, with the ability to put out a record with no label and still make a sizable profit why are you so angry and depressed all the time? This is why I think Wilco is infinitely better than them. Where with Radiohead you always have this droning on and on about self pity and angst, with Wilco you can get a deeper picture of everything. Yeah, there's some self pity and angst in there for sure, but even during the darkest moments are there some of the brighter songs of Wilco's catalogue (HMD after Ashes? Late Greats after Less Than You Think? Theologians?) I don't understand why people are in such awe of a band that essentially has been playing the same song since OK Computer. We get it Thom, with your artistic freedom, sizable bank account, beautiful voice, and fronting a group of other talented musicians, that the world, and apparently, your life, is still an awful place.

I don't expect everyone to be happy or that 'The Biggest Band in the World' be a mirror of the state of it's listeners, but come on. Eat some freaking humble pie, listen to the birds outside and write some happy songs.

The only problem for these guys now is that after living an entire career in the depths of misery that if they were to write something happy and upbeat it would probably sound extremely laughable.

[Wilco LP #7]

Yeah I think a lot of you are spot on. Basically, Radiohead has an incredible sound: but they can't be the "it" band, the everything band, the ultimate band that Pitchfork and so many others make them out to be with such a predictable direction with lyrics and tone. The lion's share of my problem with Radiohead is their reception, the incredibly excessive praise piled on them. I can't help but let it affect how I regard the band. Especially the case when there are still so many people out there oblivious to or doubting the unparalleled and many-sided magic of Wilco.

 

And I think Berman is spot on in talking about the band's fanbase: it is indeed upsetting how in tune so many people are with this band. It's not good for the most popular band around and the one people rally behind most to be one that wallows perpetually in its own self-pity and misery. I's really bothersome. There's way more to life than that, and a large part of a generation may be denying that.