The end is near!

[jimmyjimmy]

.....(I do believe Angela's fro was a wig....)

 

LouieB

Heresy.

[sweetheart-mine]

my first vote went to mcgovern in 1972. wow, was that a sorry night in my apartment.

[Mrs. Peel]

My daughter told me about a discussion she had with one of her friends. She asked the girl why she would not vote for Obama and the girl said flat out I don't like black people. My daughter said that's making a decision because your a racist then. The other kid replied no I'm not racist I just don't like black people (or mexicans for that matter). My kid asked her if she hated her sister who is 50/50. The other kid could not comprehend that her sister was black. Very interesting stupid stuff from hs freshmen.

 

Jeez, I thought you were going to say they were 10 years old or under.

[Spawn's dad]

Actually, in my experience, younger kids tend to be more tolerant..

[Sir Stewart]

my first vote went to mcgovern in 1972. wow, was that a sorry night in my apartment.

 

Were you in MA by chance? At least you would've had company.

[Lammycat]

Ralph Nader was in town last night (up in Boulder, actually). He says that the Democrats take your vote for granted and "prepare to be seriously disappointed in the election of Barack Obama." He said Obama's bid is "an unprecendented upward career move." He feels neither Obama nor McCain ever mention the poor, only the middle class.

 

Ralph's still ticked about third party exclusion, too.

[LouieB]

a friend of mine, american but has lived in england for 40 years, is definitely left of center and we discuss politics all the time. she has never once mentioned the green party in europe, so i suspect they're organizational spazzes there, too. i'm going to ask her, though. in '04 we held a few meetings at our place, and about halfway into a meeting i was ready to burn the house down to get them out of here. i think one of the problems is that people active in the party like to consider themselves marginal people, and i get that, but if you aren't willing to let some of it go for the sake of organization -- well, organization isn't going to happen. although many were genuinely committed to some issues, they seemed pretty attached to their self-images as, oh my god, i guess you'd call them "mavericks." hanging on to that notion 100% when you're trying to grow a party gets in the way. the green party mavericks have trouble working as a team, at least here. people rarely knew what anyone else in the party was doing because they were too busy talking nonstop themselves. (keep in mind this is being written by a person who can't stand joining a group of any kind, so who am i to talk!)

 

i almost forgot about john anderson in 1980. i voted for him. in 1992 perot caught our interest for about a week and then we realized he was mostly crazy.

voted for nader in 2000, but m. christine, you win a prize for admitting you voted for him in '04 too! here, i'll admit something embarrassing: in 1992 my husband and i were delegates to our state democratic convention for . . . jerry brown.

I met Rich Whitney and a bunch of the IL Green's through my daughter (formerly Tweedys Gurl) one night and it was facinating as well. I am not much of an organizational persion, although I have spent much of my life attending meetings. This was a social gathering and it was as you describe, people who consider themselves outsiders and odd balls. Whitney's wife kept expressing opinions that she kept acting like she was the only one who had them, when in fact they were pretty common leftish opinions and not that unusual. In order to put together an IL slate of candidates (by this time the election was long over) they apparently took all comers, which included at least one person they couldn't stand and apparently didn't agree with for one state office.

 

For me this entire third party thing (I am particularly disappointed with Nader who I think is a jerk...) has little to do with organizing to get unmet governmental needs met and more about self agrandizement. The newest New Yorker has several interesting articles about Nader and the Bob Bart running for president with the Libertarians (he was a very conservative Republican initially.) We really need to go back to the earliest part of the 20th century to find real third parties that made any difference (I keep mentioning Debs since he got a million votes while in jail.....history buffs can chime in on this...).

 

If I am cranky about anything (as myboyblue has accused me of...) it is clearly that I think people want to find fault with Barack so they can justify voting for some wacko third party and totally waste there vote (and maybe put Sarah Palin in the White House...) rather than understand how unique a moment this is.

 

My story about visiting Trinity UCC Church this past week has been largely ignored, but I have to tell you it is very moving sitting and talking with African Americans (even these folks who could be really pissed off at Barack for dissing his former church), but actually they also know this is an historic election and that this is the time. For some of us here not to recognize that and bad mouth Barack only proves that some folks (like members of the Green Party) can't see beyond the end of their noses (an expression my mother used to use...). Sure I would like to vote Socialist or Workers Party or some such entity that may represent more closely my personal ideology than the Democrats do, but they don't exist and they haven't existed in my lifetime. So we need to support the party closest to our basic philosophy and support it to the exent we feel able and certainly give it the only thing they really ask for, our vote, not waste another opportunity and end up with another Bush, McCain, Palin to suffer through again...

 

LouieB

[mountain bed]

Lou, you know I listen to you more than just for which jazz LPs to buy.

[LouieB]

Ralph Nader was in town last night (up in Boulder, actually). He says that the Democrats take your vote for granted and "prepare to be seriously disappointed in the election of Barack Obama." He said Obama's bid is "an unprecendented upward career move." He feels neither Obama nor McCain ever mention the poor, only the middle class.

 

Ralph's still ticked about third party exclusion, too.

As usual Ralph is right and totally wrong....

 

He certainly has a right to be pissed about being excluded from the debates except he has NO base and is polling in the fraction of a percentage point.....sore fucking loser...

 

As far as an unprecedented career move, Ralph is trying the same fucking thing, except he has NEVER won any elected office and doesn't know how to..(the small article in the New Yorker about him this week is interesting..)

 

Are we going to be disappointed in Obama, of course we are....those of us voting for him aren't as stupid as he makes us out to be. Barack is going to make mistakes, have set backs, not be able to give us everything he is promising, be saddled with huge problems (those we know about) and other problems that have not yet reared their ugly heads. Taking us for being that stupid is one more reason Nader is an asshole and shouldn't get anyone's vote. At least Barack and his advisors KNOW how to run a campaign, put together an organization and promote reasonalby progressive ideas, something Nader has no clue about, not even one, he can't organize his ass out o a paperbag.

 

He is right about the current major candidates talking only about the middle class; I agree with that, but frankly talking about the poor, a new deal, a great society or any other program for the poor and disposessed has NO traction with voters this time out, none. At least Obama is talking about healthcare, jobs, redistributing wealth, taxes on the rich,green jobs, alternative energy and other pretty socialist sounding stuff.

 

Nader is the epitome of the self involved self serving candidate who really only cares about himself....

 

LouieB

[LouieB]

Lou, you know I listen to you more than just for which jazz LPs to buy.

Thanks man.....I am working (questionable at the moment I really do have to work) at home today and as soon as I get off here, I plan to go vote early and I guess I have made it clear who I am voting for....

 

Wish we could party election night..it is going to be great...and you know.....you may take the state of Indiana with you this year...you could make history....

 

LouieB

[Lammycat]

If I am cranky about anything (as myboyblue has accused me of...) it is clearly that I think people want to find fault with Barack so they can justify voting for some wacko third party and totally waste there vote (and maybe put Sarah Palin in the White House...) rather than understand how unique a moment this is.

LouieB

That seems pretty far from a democratic viewpoint in my eyes. The point of people voting for whomever they choose to (and have as much right to as you do voting for whomever you choose to) is really up to the individual and no one should be expected to justify their decision to anyone else. It's an anonymous vote and there is more than one candidate for a very democratic reason.

 

Nader is the epitome of the self involved self serving candidate who really only cares about himself....

 

LouieB

So different from the other options out there!

 

Point taken, though.

[LouieB]

That seems pretty far from a democratic viewpoint in my eyes. The point of people voting for whomever they choose to (and have as much right to as you do voting for whomever you choose to) is really up to the individual and no one should be expected to justify their decision to anyone else. It's an anonymous vote and there is more than one candidate for a very democratic reason.

I have said this repeatedly here...vote third party if you feel like it. I am just TRYING to get all those who think this is a good idea to see it really isn't. Do you have to justify your position? NO!! You can be a selfish bastard and vote for a fellow selfish bastard like Ralph Nader (left) or Bob Bart (right) and that's fine.

 

But if one (not you necessarily) can't see that collective action to get the best possible candidate in office (whether it be Obama or McCain since they are the only ones who have a shot at this thing this year) isn't the best course of action that's fine too. Hindsight is 20/20 but if the majority of voters had voted Gore rather than Nader in FLA in 2000 we would be ending 8 years of Gore (for better or worse) rather than 8 years of Bush (which WAS worse...but maybe you don't think he was.....)

 

edit and then I am gone.....this year the polls are showing is razor thin close election (as the last two presidental elections). I know that some folks here think that the laws mathematics don't work in these situations, but they do. The candidate with the most votes in the most states wins, which means if you vote third party your vote either doesn't count, or it may help the more heinous of the two candidates (depending on your ideological point of view.) If you can live with the fact that you may help Barack or John into the White House for voting for Nader, go for it. I continue to be the voice of reason (and the laws of mathematics here...) and feel if you have any progressive blood in your stream, vote for Barack. If you enjoy the right wing, vote for McCain, but if you just really don't give a shit, then vote some person who has wacky fucking ideas and no organization. The rest of us will do the heavy lifting for you.

 

LouieB

[Spawn's dad]

There really is no hope for this country at all.

[embiggen]

Rudy Giuliani is a douche.

[NightOfJoy]

Actually, in my experience, younger kids tend to be more tolerant..

 

My kids have been so heavily exposed to different races that I'm pretty sure they're color blind. I have to say I'm very proud. I guess it helps that they have aunts and cousins that are brown and black.

[mountain bed]

Thanks man.....I am working (questionable at the moment I really do have to work) at home today and as soon as I get off here, I plan to go vote early and I guess I have made it clear who I am voting for....

 

Wish we could party election night..it is going to be great...and you know.....you may take the state of Indiana with you this year...you could make history....

 

LouieB

Oh, I certainly hope so. We've tried..

 

I talked about this in the rtt, but Monday night I came home from work and my OBAMA/BIDEN sign had been stolen from my yard. I went to a friend's house (the guy who got his sign with me) and was bitching about it. He calls me up the next day - HIS sign had been stolen too! Fuckers.

 

So I guess it's a good thing we had backup - we both just put another sign out the next day.

[LouieB]

There really is no hope for this country at all.

No offence but that is total bullshit. I don't feel that way at all and I am pegged at a crank.

 

LouieB

[JUDE]

So voting your beliefs and not accepting the status quo is being a selfish bastard and doing whatever is necessary to win is not.

 

Nice point of view.

[jenbobblehead]

Oh, I certainly hope so. We've tried..

 

I talked about this in the rtt, but Monday night I came home from work and my OBAMA/BIDEN sign had been stolen from my yard. I went to a friend's house (the guy who got his sign with me) and was bitching about it. He calls me up the next day - HIS sign had been stolen too! Fuckers.

 

So I guess it's a good thing we had backup - we both just put another sign out the next day.

If it makes you feel better--Obama Biden signs have been springing up in our neighborhood like mushrooms.

[Spawn's dad]

I don't feel that way at all and I am pegged at a crank.

 

LouieB

 

I have no idea what that means, but at this point instead of voting for the mediocrity that is our two party system of pandering

to lobbyists and special interest groups I'm going to be a selfish bastard and vote for a third party.

[Lammycat]

You can be a selfish bastard and vote for a fellow selfish bastard like Ralph Nader (left) or Bob Bart (right) and that's fine.

 

I continue to be the voice of reason (and the laws of mathematics here...) and feel if you have any progressive blood in your stream, vote for Barack. If you enjoy the right wing, vote for McCain, but if you just really don't give a shit, then vote some person who has wacky fucking ideas and no organization. The rest of us will do the heavy lifting for you.

LouieB

Just the points the framers of the Constitution had in mind, I'd imagine: berated into voting for one of the two Big parties.

 

I didn't say who I was voting for, just making a point that I think it's 100% acceptable (nay, constitutional) for people to vote for whomever they feel meets their needs best. Period.

 

You make some decent points Lou, but fail to see the bigger picture, I believe. If a person can live with their personal vote and is comfortable that they voted for their personal best choice candidate, whether that takes away from another person's "Party" choice or not, then that's all that matters. Talk about selfish.

[jenbobblehead]

It would be great if you could vote for the person who best represents your point of view, and of course people can do that, but it is actually smarter and better in the long run if you vote for someone who 1. has a chance of being elected and 2. is better than the other guy running. Because those really are your choices for the future. Throwing your vote to unelectable third party candidates hasn't made third party candidacy any more viable, except on the very very local level. It really doesn't send a message to the two big parties that they need to change. Is it a great system? No, but it is the system we have for 2008 and your choices are McCain and Obama, realistically.

[Lammycat]

I realize there are only two viable options to occupy the White House. Who doesn't? I also realize that voting for the lesser bad guy is probably the best option.

 

That's not my point, though.

[M. (hristine]

I'm going to continue to vote for who I bloody well please.

[MrRain422]

I think voting for third party candidates in local elections is usually great, and in Presidential elections its fine if that's what you really want to do, I just think that people are fooling themselves if they think that voting for a third party candidate in this election is going to make a bit of difference. None of the third party candidates are really forcing any issues onto the table very successfully, and the stakes this time are too high to let a Republican win (IMO of course). In other elections, with lower stakes, and with third party candidates who actually stand for something, then sure, go for it.